Infinite Space and Time...How?

Mac
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21 years 10 months ago #4645 by Mac

Replied by Mac on topic Reply from Dan McCoin

rush,

I don't think anyone is try8ing to ridicule Tome or MM. There are many questions to be answered and new concepts to consider. NOt all are going to be accepted (just ask me, right Tom).

But if a person feels they have a strong counter point it may be offered as a challenge. There may even be a sense of "gotcha" but I haven't seen Tom flench yet.

I think if Tom felt dishonored by a post he would certainly let the person know. Why certain nicknames are selected is another matter, I use Mac because that is what I was called for many years in the Army or perhaps I'm to lazy to come up with something clever.

Mac

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tvanflandern
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21 years 10 months ago #4646 by tvanflandern

Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"What happens to your model if you remove the value infinity from it?"<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Before a question can be answered, it must make sense and be understood. I don't understand this question.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Since infinity does not exist in the physical universe and it only exists in the imaginary then how can you justify using the term infinity in a model that is supposidly based on principles of the physical?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Physics exists in reality. Math exists, in a sense, only in our minds. It is the same with color and other properties of reality. They are useful in our descriptions of reality. But they are not a part of reality, just of our thought and communication processes.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You are mixing units! You are mixing units of real with non-real values and calling them real. 0 is a value used in mathematics, does your Model use the value 0 and how does it justify something just disappearing out of existence?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Zero and infinity are mathematical descriptions, not things that exist in reality. They are useful in communicating concepts, such as "How many of three apples are left after we have eaten three?" There are no infinite accelerations in reality. But impulses are useful in models, and they assume infinite accelerations in their math because impulses are sudden, instantaneous changes in velocity by definition.

Here's an example. We model wind as a continuous force. But in reality, it consists of innumerable discrete impacts of air molecules against objects such as our skin. So wind is not a continuous force at all, but a series of impulses. Because we are unable to model these impulses in detail (because we cannot see or feel the individual impacts), we model them as instantaneous momentum transfers from the air to our skin using the kinetic theory of gases. But as you see, this "instantaneous" property exists only in our minds. Ir is just a convenient way of describing and communicating reality. -|Tom|-

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rush
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21 years 10 months ago #4888 by rush

Replied by rush on topic Reply from

I see no problems in considering the Universe "infinity" in space and time. It answers more questions and avoid the non-sensical "expanding into nothingness".

Although it, I am almost sure that maybe we are not able to get a perfect description of our Universe yet. Again, I see no problems. I just can not accept that they are introducing the Big-Bang model to our childs as if it was the only model that can describe our Universe. On the contrary, I have no doubt that that is the worst model we have. But people did not realise it.

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Jeremy
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21 years 10 months ago #4467 by Jeremy

Replied by Jeremy on topic Reply from

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The point here [Rush] is that there is nothing in physical reality that is infinite.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Is that opinion or fact? You have gone out in your spaceship and confirmed that nothing in the universe is infinite?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Furthermore, you will never, EVER, be able to prove that infinity exists in reality.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Probably true, but by the same token you cannot show by evidence that the universe is in any sense finite. Our most distant telescope photos show no signs of stars or galaxies running out.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Finally, all of the proof, backed up by the "principles of physics" shows that infinity is not possible in reality, only in mathematics. There is nothing physical that is infinite, PERIOD!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

More pure assertion, no facts to buttress it.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Time and space are both physical therefore they cannot be infinite.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Really? Show me the end of the universe. Tell me when time began and when its going to end.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If infinity helps resolve issues in ones mind it does not make it real. If these are the types of facts you seek then why not just turn everything over to God and do exactly as the book of worship instructs you?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Now religion. For a person who doesn't believe actual infinities can exist I don't see how you could possibly then consider God seriously.

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rush
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21 years 10 months ago #4468 by rush

Replied by rush on topic Reply from

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Im am dummy:

So does God!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No. God would create the Universe just as in Big-Bang bullshit.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I am dummy:
The point here [Rush] is that there is nothing in physical reality that is infinite. Furthermore, you will never, EVER, be able to prove that infinity exists in reality.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

So what? That's why I put "infinite". Can you prove that the Universe is finite? If you say that the Universe is finite you are assuming that the Universe has boundaries. Boundaries with what? What does have "beyond" the Universe?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I am dummy:
Perhaps I am not as big of a dummy as I thought but I am still just learning.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I see...

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rush
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21 years 10 months ago #4471 by rush

Replied by rush on topic Reply from

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Dummy:
I don't need to prove the universe is finite, it does it by itself. There is nothing physical that is infinite, PERIOD! This should not be in doubt with anyone. Would you care to tell me that the universe is not physical?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Have you been talking to the Universe? Or did some god tell it to you?

The Universe is physical and probably is "infinity" in the sense that it has no boundaries.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Dummy:
I'm not really sure that you do see. It apprears as thought you may still be in dreamland. (Knock...Knock...Knock..) It's time to wake up and smell reality.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I see that you are learning as all we are. Read my last post again.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Dummy:

Perhaps I could suggest that you contact Dr. VanFlandern directly since you don't seem to want to believe what he has written.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I am not here to "believe" in anyone.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Dummy:

Once again,
"(TVF)Zero and infinity are mathematical descriptions, not things that exist in reality. They are useful in communicating concepts, such as "How many of three apples are left after we have eaten three?" There are no infinite accelerations in reality. But impulses are useful in models, and they assume infinite accelerations in their math because impulses are sudden, instantaneous changes in velocity by definition."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

We can not put limits for the Universe as a whole. When we put limits, we have to define what is beyond the Universe. Can you imagine what is "outside" of the Universe? Can you imagine nothingness?

The current model we have for the Universe is the Big-Bang. Do you accept that model as the best model for the Universe or do you think we have find another model?

I think we have to find another model. That's why I'm here. If you think not, I don't know why you waste your time here.

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