Mal Education - System Design - Should Be VS Is

<b>[shando]"... the system to produce suitable parts for the industrial/military complex ..."</b>

The military-industrial complex actually went away shortly after it was born. By the time Eisenhower warned us, it was already close to death. Too bad, because that death was caused by the birth of its replacement, the military-industrial-congressional complex.

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<b>[shando] "I am thinking that we need a course designed for early childhood ..."</b>

Age 11 might be too late. Or rather - such a program should be designed to be useable by a younger person. It should even have a good bit of functionality for people of any age that cannot read or write.

A tablet/smart phone app? Hopefully the first one would light some fires and soon there would be many.

I can't believe it.
Each of you has a LARGE piece of the puzzle.

You guys are so d*mn close ... and yet ...

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OK, here's a pop quiz.

What is the most important difference between a free society and a dictatorship?

But before you take a shot at that one, give us your OPINION on this one

Is the USA a free society or a dictatorship? No wrong answer, no right answer. I'm looking for your <u>opinion</u>.

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I can't ask you to do that if I won't. So - I believe the USA is currently a dictatorship. Having said that, in order to understand me you need to figure out what that word actually means. And that gets us back to the pop quiz.

It might help to think FIRST about what a free society and a dictatorship have in common.

I suspect that all of you will disagree with me about the USA. It's OK. I have thick skin. My opinion is based on sort of a technicality. (We can talk about whether or not that is fair.)

I don't dislike living here. Dictatorships are not <u>automatically</u> horrible. And the people who live in them are not <u>automatically</u> enslaved. As dictatorships go this one is not too bad. Certainly nothing like the Soviets or the Nazis.

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If this leads to more discussion, we'll need to move it to a new forum. It is already off topic here. Sorry.

SOME SIMILARITES BETWEEN FREE SOCIETIES AND DICTATORSHIPS

<ul><li>People get up each morning</li>
<li>And go to work</li>
<li>They watch TV in the evening</li>
<li>Or go to a restaurant or bar.</li>
<li>Most of them have kids</li>
<li>The government makes some of them join the military</li>
<li>A few of them are killed in the war.</li>
<li>Others become captains of industry.</li>
<li>But most just live a moderately tough life and then die in peace.</li>
</ul>

Sounds pretty normal, doesn't it? I claim that this also describes life in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Places I most definitely would NOT want to have lived.

I'd be interested in knowing how others would view the similarities. Please post your list. Or, let me know why I'm wrong.

LB

There are 2 kinds of dictatorships: totalitarian and authoritarian. I'm assuming you put the USA in the latter because of the increasing burden of regulations from all levels of government.
My answer is we are still free. As long as the ability to change those regulations is open to the people, either indirectly through elections or directly through voter initiatives, we hold to freedom. Tenuously, it sometimes feels like, but still free.
Difference between free society and dictatorships? I just gave my answer above: in a dictatorship, elections can change nothing. I can't wait to see your answer.

But back to education.

<s>LB</s> [shando] wrote: Some K-12 kids will find that their "self-interested self determined" education leads them to a leadership career - and because it is an interest they discovered and developed on their own (with some strategic coaching) they will love it and do it well.

Do it well? After strategic coaching by. . .who exactly?

Question: can you think of any leader in history, either groomed for leadership or who made becoming a leader his "career", who was not authoritarian (if not worse)? I can't.

Many of the current crop of pols are life-time "leaders", never really working outside of politics. Most come from the legal field, for that prepares them to write laws (and gives important contacts). Many staffers come from journalism, which polls show the majority of students enter "to make a difference"; i.e., be political.

Our truly democratic leaders have been those who didn't really want the job, but sought the position for a temporary time to do limited legislation/things. Think G. Washington.

So in my opinion, turning over politics to "self-interested self-determined" politicians is welcoming in a dictatorship. Of course, if you think we already are one, I guess you might be okay with that.

My utopia is informed, well-educated voters who understand political ideologies, basic economic principles, and the governmental framework of the country. Then if they choose Progressivism or its leftward forms with eyes wide open, so be it. I trust they wouldn't.

Self-interested self-determined education does nothing to develop informed, educated voters.

Ken

The more you learn, the less you know--I don't want to know anything.

<b>[KeLP] "Self-interested self-determined education does nothing to develop informed, educated voters.</b>

(You have some thought provoking ideas. Thanks for joining in.)

I created a new topic for this discussion. Go to <font color="pink"><b>The Structure of a Society </b></font id="pink"> to continue.

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Resume the System Design discussion here.

Thanks
LB

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KeLP</i>
<br />But back to education.

<s>LB</s> [shando] wrote: Some K-12 kids will find that their "self-interested self determined" education leads them to a leadership career - and because it is an interest they discovered and developed on their own (with some strategic coaching) they will love it and do it well.

Do it well? After strategic coaching by. . .who exactly?

<b>There are lots of other leadership jobs besides that of president, both inside and outside government. Today's metric is an MBa to qualify. Generally speaking, those who "love" their work do their job well, and those who don't "love" their work don't do their job as well.

The strategic coaching would be done by whomever the student chooses - a la the Sudbury School Model.</b>

Question: can you think of any leader in history, either groomed for leadership or who made becoming a leader his "career", who was not authoritarian (if not worse)? I can't.

<b>Easy - Bill Clinton</b>

Many of the current crop of pols are life-time "leaders", never really working outside of politics. Most come from the legal field, for that prepares them to write laws (and gives important contacts). Many staffers come from journalism, which polls show the majority of students enter "to make a difference"; i.e., be political.

<b>Am I correcting in inferring that you believe that "working outside of politics" is a necessary perquisite for becoming a politician?</b>

Our truly democratic leaders have been those who didn't really want the job, but sought the position for a temporary time to do limited legislation/things. Think G. Washington.

<b>Democratic leaders can also be ineffectual. </b>

So in my opinion, turning over politics to "self-interested self-determined" politicians is welcoming in a dictatorship. Of course, if you think we already are one, I guess you might be okay with that.

<b>I think "self-interested self-determined" politicians tend to become dictators. We have been talking about how to obtain a "self-interested self-determined" education, which is not the same thing.</b>

My utopia is informed, well-educated voters who understand political ideologies, basic economic principles, and the governmental framework of the country. Then if they choose Progressivism or its leftward forms with eyes wide open, so be it. I trust they wouldn't.

Self-interested self-determined education does nothing to develop informed, educated voters.

Ken

The more you learn, the less you know--I don't want to know anything.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<b>In my utopia, the hand of government is invisible - somewhat like the design qualities of Apple products - it is there but you don't see it or worry about it unless you have need to.</b>