Cosmological Model

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The 3k background is microwave and the 3k part is an embillishment of the facts from misuse of blackbody law. There is no way to use a tool to measure the temperature of anything in space and as I said this kind of misuse of rules that are workable within reason is most of the problem in physics. If the background radiation was a gas at 3k then it would have mass too.

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Good point I think.
I think physics basically by all kinds of ill use of concepts, and apply them onto something else.

It has gone out of hand, physics is going into fields, it can't go really.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You say that as the start of this Big Bang there was just energy.
How did that energy assemble there, when at the same instant, time, matter and space came into existence.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
The energy has always been there, it is the ONLY thing which is truely infinite. Everything was created from it and everything returns to it, a process of expansion and contraction. If nothing comes into or goes out of existence and everything that exists already exists then "everything" can only be FINITE.

Here is where understanding becomes difficult, <b>"there can be an infinite amount of "something"(space, time) but that does not make that "something" infinite."</b> Example: The set of numbers {1,2}
Obviously the set itself is not infinite however, there is an infinite amount between 1 & 2. Now, look at the set of {EVERYTHING} which would include any of the other sets including the set of {space} and {time}. The set is not infinite yet the contents of the set may be.

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You say that as the start of this Big Bang there was just energy.
How did that energy assemble there, when at the same instant, time, matter and space came into existence.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
The energy has always been there, it is the ONLY thing which is truely infinite. Everything was created from it and everything returns to it, a process of expansion and contraction. If nothing comes into or goes out of existence and everything that exists already exists then "everything" can only be FINITE.

Here is where understanding becomes difficult, <b>"there can be an infinite amount of "something"(space, time) but that does not make that "something" infinite."</b> Example: The set of numbers {1,2}
Obviously the set itself is not infinite however, there is an infinite amount between 1 & 2. Now, look at the set of {EVERYTHING} which would include any of the other sets including the set of {space} and {time}. The set is not infinite yet the contents of the set may be.

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yeahhhhh

Ok. Now tell me Patrick, you say that Energy existed, even when nothing else, not even space or time existed.

But that is just notorious nonsense you say. I mean, still if nothing changes, time does exist. So, that Energy, which quite logically can't exist without time, existed all the time.

How did it get there, and why all at a sudden it outbursted and transformed into anything else??

These are just some puzzles.
You cannot get rid of it so easily by telling that time didn't exist or something, cause the flow of time just happens to go no matter what happens or not. You can't just get rid of that by saying it didn't exist. Time exists, despite of something is changing.

And because time exists up to the infinite past and infinite future, by definition there can't have been a beginning.

Here is a good text on this issue:

Philisophy of nature: Time and Space


Then you go on with your own definitions of what sets are like.

The set {1, 2} in my understanding means the set of INTEGRAL numbers '1' and '2'. If you meant to say the REAL numbers in the RANGE from 1 to 2, then by sure you could not write them all down, cause they are an infinite set by themselves. So, by definition that is a set with an infinite number of members.
But as a set, you could include that set into another set, and then in that parent set, it would be just 1 member. But that is not what you stated, you stated the set {1, 2} contains an infinite amount of numbers, while this set has just two member, '1' and '2'.

Agreed?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Ok. Now tell me Patrick, you say that Energy existed, even when nothing else, not even space or time existed.

But that is just notorious nonsense you say. I mean, <b>**still if nothing changes**</b>, time does exist. So, that Energy, which quite logically can't exist without time, existed all the time.

How did it get there, and why all at a sudden it outbursted and transformed into anything else??<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
If nothing changes then how can time exist? Time can't exist unless space exists. Space can't exist unless matter exists. Matter can't exist unless energy exists. It is the "energy" which created the matter, which created the space, which created the time.
Why did the "energy" create the matter you ask. Simple, because it could, <b>E=mc2</b>. Did it do it all of a sudden? It isn't a one time event, it is a process, it has been going on infinitely.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Time exists, despite of something is changing.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Sorry, but this makes no sense to me at all. Time is a measurement of change.

I'm still looking for the proof to the following quote:
<b>Here's a proof that the Big Bang theory is wrong (for reasons of mere logic).</b>

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Ok. Now tell me Patrick, you say that Energy existed, even when nothing else, not even space or time existed.

But that is just notorious nonsense you say. I mean, <b>**still if nothing changes**</b>, time does exist. So, that Energy, which quite logically can't exist without time, existed all the time.

How did it get there, and why all at a sudden it outbursted and transformed into anything else??<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
If nothing changes then how can time exist? Time can't exist unless space exists. Space can't exist unless matter exists. Matter can't exist unless energy exists. It is the "energy" which created the matter, which created the space, which created the time.
Why did the "energy" create the matter you ask. Simple, because it could, <b>E=mc2</b>. Did it do it all of a sudden? It isn't a one time event, it is a process, it has been going on infinitely.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Time exists, despite of something is changing.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Sorry, but this makes no sense to me at all. Time is a measurement of change.
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But then we state the same thing if you say that time didn't begin, but was there all the time, energy/matter was there all the time, and space was there all the time.

The we totally agree with each other.

Did you read the Philisophy of Nature paragraph about Time and Space?

The flow of time occurs also when there isn't a change, although one could say, since matter and motion are indivisible and unseperatable, one could as well say that time is a measure for change or motion.

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I'm still looking for the proof to the following quote:
<b>Here's a proof that the Big Bang theory is wrong (for reasons of mere logic).</b>

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Well, I need to restate or at least refine the statement.

It can't be everything came into being out of a mere nothing.
Big Bang theory doesn't explicitly state that, it just states that everything we see now in the universe, was 14 Gyr ago or some, tighly close together.

I was not able invalidate that, cause there is too much observational evidence for it (but, they assume certain interpretations of physics law, as this could still proofed to be wrong).
We don't have an alternative explenation for the redshift, so we conclude, it was due to doppler redshift, and thus involves motion or the expanding of the universe.

The alternative I introduced was some nonsense, it was shown to be wrong, cause even in infinite space, the universe could be expanding or contracting, and we would not get rid of that so easily (other then assuming very peculiar things).

So, we must see it this way. Or we conclude we don't realy know what happened very short after the Big Bang, and hold our breath ever trying to explain what happened exactly.
Or we go find out what could have been possibly the case, and when we don't assume the 'beginning of time' as a possibility (like the Hawking-Turok Instanton pea) then I think the best candidate is the theory of eternal or chaotic inflation, as put forward by Andrei Linde.
His model goes about eternal inflation, which goes back to infinite past and infinite future, and does some good predictions on basis of the inflation theory as to the observable universe which we can test.

So, that would be my best guess.

So the only logic assumption I think we can pertain is saying that there was no beginning, even if this somehow contradicts the fact the Big Bang occured.

The beginning can be ruled out just on the basis of logic. The rest is up to observational evidence, and underlying theories.

Now if you can't understand all of this, I am with you, cause neither can I. I think the task is just too much outside of our normal domains of knowledge. And that has some reasons, because we can never have a complete "picture" of the universe (we are inside it, remember) it's already very difficult to know what the galaxy we are in looks like, although that is more simple cause we see other galaxies too, but as for the universe we can ever only see one of them.

So, as a matter of convenience, we can best say that we will never have ABSOLUTE knowledge as to what was "before" the universe etc.
All we can do, is speculate of a possible world "outside" or "before" our universe, but we never can have direct evidence of that.


If you are curious about this Inflation theory, here are some links.

Here's a link to Inflation theory

Andrei Linde lecture on Infaltion theory

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But then we state the same thing if you say that time didn't begin, but was there all the time, energy/matter was there all the time, and space was there all the time.

The(n) we totally agree with each other.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Not even close!

I am saying that the "energy" is the only thing that has been there the entire time, it has no beginning and no end. The rest of the stuff(space, time, matter) all has a beginning and all will have an end. When the end comes for those other things they will become one with the energy and, again, the energy will be the only thing.

Energy creates matter(E=mc2), when the matter is made space and time are created instantaneously. Space, time, matter, everything is of the energy and within the energy. Eventually, everything will collapse upon itself through/from gravity(c2=E/m) breaking down all of the matter(m=E/c2)leaving us again simply as a pure form of eternal energy. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Agreed?