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- neilderosa
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18 years 2 months ago #9202
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
I want to comment on the relevance of Riches experiment to the search for artifacts on Mars. When you reduce it to its essentials the test is really quite simple—if I understand it correctly. The subjects are given 20,000 images to look at. They are told there are Ss in 50% of the images, but this is untrue, or more accurately it is unknown. What they are actually getting is (probably) random “white noise” (nobody has yet defined this term in this discussion so here it is: “White noise is a type of noise that is produced by combining light of all different frequencies together.”) It’s probably safe to say that actually what is meant by “white noise” here is a random combination of black and white pixels on a screen or image. Out of 20,000 random “throws,” statisticians would tell us that some will randomly resemble Ss, (some will also randomly resemble Ws, Bs and faces, or any combination thereof).
Power of suggestion is now introduced, in two ways; by lying to the subjects that half will have Ss in them, and by telling the subjects to look for Ss. They are not looking for Bs or Ws or faces, just Ss. And this skews the results, as would be expected.
Now the subjects find a certain number of Ss in the images <b>because Ss are contained in some of the image</b>. I want to stress this point because it lies at the heart of the controversy. But since the Ss found by the subjects are random occurrences, they vary in shape, size, type, sharpness, and so on; and since the individual subjects vary in their ability to find these objects, they get different (although similar) results.
But it is important to remember that all of the subjects found Ss because the Ss were really there. They were not “imaginary” or “superstitious;” they were really there. But, as has been said, they were not “artificial” (i.e. placed there by the tester); they were “natural” (randomly occurring--if we can believe the test protocols and that's where controls and independent verification come in).
So far there is nothing at all unusual about any of this; one might even go so far as to say that the results are unimpressive and quite expected. <b>What would be unusual and highly pertinent to the question at hand would be if, instead of being vague Ss, a certain percentage of the Ss were very good and clear Ss in the definite recognized form of a “Times Roman,” or “Ariel” font</b>. If that happened, and the reader were told about it by the testers, that would mean that at least some of the Ss were probably artificial, or at least the likelihood that they were random would be decreased dramatically, or rather, astronomically.
That is what we are seeing in our search for artificial structures on Mars, <b>some (not all, not even most) of the objects are the epistemological equivalents of Ss in the Times Roman or the Ariel font style, meaning well recognized as artificial structures</b>. But because this is a new and highly controversial paradigm, we are up against immensely stiff, economic, political, and yes, psychological resistance. But we are making headway.
Neil
Power of suggestion is now introduced, in two ways; by lying to the subjects that half will have Ss in them, and by telling the subjects to look for Ss. They are not looking for Bs or Ws or faces, just Ss. And this skews the results, as would be expected.
Now the subjects find a certain number of Ss in the images <b>because Ss are contained in some of the image</b>. I want to stress this point because it lies at the heart of the controversy. But since the Ss found by the subjects are random occurrences, they vary in shape, size, type, sharpness, and so on; and since the individual subjects vary in their ability to find these objects, they get different (although similar) results.
But it is important to remember that all of the subjects found Ss because the Ss were really there. They were not “imaginary” or “superstitious;” they were really there. But, as has been said, they were not “artificial” (i.e. placed there by the tester); they were “natural” (randomly occurring--if we can believe the test protocols and that's where controls and independent verification come in).
So far there is nothing at all unusual about any of this; one might even go so far as to say that the results are unimpressive and quite expected. <b>What would be unusual and highly pertinent to the question at hand would be if, instead of being vague Ss, a certain percentage of the Ss were very good and clear Ss in the definite recognized form of a “Times Roman,” or “Ariel” font</b>. If that happened, and the reader were told about it by the testers, that would mean that at least some of the Ss were probably artificial, or at least the likelihood that they were random would be decreased dramatically, or rather, astronomically.
That is what we are seeing in our search for artificial structures on Mars, <b>some (not all, not even most) of the objects are the epistemological equivalents of Ss in the Times Roman or the Ariel font style, meaning well recognized as artificial structures</b>. But because this is a new and highly controversial paradigm, we are up against immensely stiff, economic, political, and yes, psychological resistance. But we are making headway.
Neil
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18 years 2 months ago #16104
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
I can see there is still a little confusion, so let me make a few clarifications. I think this should clear up a few things.
1. Here's a pretty good definition of "white noise" from Wilkepedia:
White noise is a random signal (or process) with a flat power spectral density. In other words, the signal's power spectral density has equal power in any band, at any centre frequency, having a given bandwidth. White noise is considered analogous to white light which contains all frequencies.
An infinite-bandwidth white noise signal is purely a theoretical construct. By having power at all frequencies, the total power of such a signal is infinite. In practice, a signal can be "white" with a flat spectrum over a defined frequency band.
2. There is nothing "unknown" in the experiment. To say that it is unknown what the 20,000 slides contained is wrong, or "probably random" is a mis-characterization. They contained static white noise.
3. There are no Ss in any of the slides, only small systematic correlations with what each subject's knowledge of an S is to them individually, on average that is. As jrich pointed out, this could have been done with an "N", "L", "P", etc., and the results would have been similar. Are we to believe that the slides contain all of these letters, in both upper and lower case, in 30 different font types (see paper for description of statistical analysis with all the font types) in each or some slides? Well, maybe if we think about it terms of each individual pixel and how they might match up, but not in the sense of what a letter is to us. There were no letters. Only imaginary ones.
4. Finally, from the paper:
"To test that the S s in the classification images were not simply the result of our own superstitious perceptions, we correlated these classification images with the 26 letters of the alphabet from 31 fonts, 3 in 7 styles (normal, italic, bold, underline, outline, condense, extend) and in upper- and lowercase, for a total of 11,284 Pearson correlations. All letters were resized and cut to fill a square window in the two possible ways (i.e., with the width of the letter occupying the whole width of the window or the height of the letter occupying the whole height of the window). The highest correlations were obtained with the following letters (see Fig. 1, inset c, for each observer): for R.G., an uppercase Courier New bold S scaled horizontally (r=.557); for N.L., a lowercase Verdana regular-style S scaled horizontally (r=.553); and for M.L., an uppercase Arial bold S scaled vertically (r=.704). On average, confounding font, style, case, and observer, the largest correlation between the classification images and the 26 letters of the alphabet was found for S (see Fig. 2), a pattern true for each observer.
In sum, we induced superstitious perceptions of Ss by instructing 3 observers to detect this letter in noise. They did not know that the stimuli never comprised the letter, but only white noise. Thus, if the observers had performed only according to the stimulus (i.e., in a bottomup manner), their classification images should have had the same properties as averaged white noise—that is, constant energy across all spatial frequencies. However, there were marked peaks of energy below 3 cycles per letter. These must have arisen from top-down influences on the interpretation of white noise—very low correlations between input noise and the memory representations of the letter. Further analyses revealed the shape of the letters that the observer s thought they saw." (Superstitious, Schyns et al.)
rd
1. Here's a pretty good definition of "white noise" from Wilkepedia:
White noise is a random signal (or process) with a flat power spectral density. In other words, the signal's power spectral density has equal power in any band, at any centre frequency, having a given bandwidth. White noise is considered analogous to white light which contains all frequencies.
An infinite-bandwidth white noise signal is purely a theoretical construct. By having power at all frequencies, the total power of such a signal is infinite. In practice, a signal can be "white" with a flat spectrum over a defined frequency band.
2. There is nothing "unknown" in the experiment. To say that it is unknown what the 20,000 slides contained is wrong, or "probably random" is a mis-characterization. They contained static white noise.
3. There are no Ss in any of the slides, only small systematic correlations with what each subject's knowledge of an S is to them individually, on average that is. As jrich pointed out, this could have been done with an "N", "L", "P", etc., and the results would have been similar. Are we to believe that the slides contain all of these letters, in both upper and lower case, in 30 different font types (see paper for description of statistical analysis with all the font types) in each or some slides? Well, maybe if we think about it terms of each individual pixel and how they might match up, but not in the sense of what a letter is to us. There were no letters. Only imaginary ones.
4. Finally, from the paper:
"To test that the S s in the classification images were not simply the result of our own superstitious perceptions, we correlated these classification images with the 26 letters of the alphabet from 31 fonts, 3 in 7 styles (normal, italic, bold, underline, outline, condense, extend) and in upper- and lowercase, for a total of 11,284 Pearson correlations. All letters were resized and cut to fill a square window in the two possible ways (i.e., with the width of the letter occupying the whole width of the window or the height of the letter occupying the whole height of the window). The highest correlations were obtained with the following letters (see Fig. 1, inset c, for each observer): for R.G., an uppercase Courier New bold S scaled horizontally (r=.557); for N.L., a lowercase Verdana regular-style S scaled horizontally (r=.553); and for M.L., an uppercase Arial bold S scaled vertically (r=.704). On average, confounding font, style, case, and observer, the largest correlation between the classification images and the 26 letters of the alphabet was found for S (see Fig. 2), a pattern true for each observer.
In sum, we induced superstitious perceptions of Ss by instructing 3 observers to detect this letter in noise. They did not know that the stimuli never comprised the letter, but only white noise. Thus, if the observers had performed only according to the stimulus (i.e., in a bottomup manner), their classification images should have had the same properties as averaged white noise—that is, constant energy across all spatial frequencies. However, there were marked peaks of energy below 3 cycles per letter. These must have arisen from top-down influences on the interpretation of white noise—very low correlations between input noise and the memory representations of the letter. Further analyses revealed the shape of the letters that the observer s thought they saw." (Superstitious, Schyns et al.)
rd
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- MarkVitrone
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18 years 2 months ago #17478
by MarkVitrone
Replied by MarkVitrone on topic Reply from Mark Vitrone
I would like to pose a challenge to those interested in these Mars photographs. Can a curriculum be developed for the standardized evaluation of these photographs since the technology is fixed due to the pictures deriving from the same satelite? I would be great if some handbook could be produced so that photoanalysis techniques could be reproduced and verified. Tom knows much more about peer-review than myself, but it would be nice if we approached the vigor of review, even if the topic is not currently under review. It would be great to say, "Do this, this, this, and that to a photo and a view of what the naked eye would see from this altitude will be produced." Some folks seem to comment that a lot of doctoring has to be done to view some of these images, and I don't know how to reply to these questions because I remain unclear as to what processes have occured to the photographs. Just a suggestion.
Mark Vitrone
Mark Vitrone
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18 years 2 months ago #9203
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In sum, we induced superstitious perceptions of Ss by instructing 3 observers to detect this letter in noise. [rd]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I disagree with almost all of the above explanation, and I am not confused. If there is an S, however vague, in the composite (summed) box a, there are Ss however vague, (or at least component parts of Ss, but this is ulikely because as such they would not have been recognized) in the individuals that make up the average. Matter (or data) can not be created <i>ex nihilo</i>. But I will leave it there.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Tom knows much more about peer-review than myself, but it would be nice if we approached the vigor of review, even if the topic is not currently under review. It would be great to say, "Do this, this, this, and that to a photo and a view of what the naked eye would see from this altitude will be produced." Some folks seem to comment that a lot of doctoring has to be done to view some of these images, and I don't know how to reply to these questions because I remain unclear as to what processes have occurred to the photographs. [Mark]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I use only contrast and brightness, and recently histogram adjustment, to make my croppings easier to see, because I was given to understand the last time this subject was brought up--I believe it was in the "Family" thread--that this does not add any information that is not already contained in the image, except to vary the lighting to make it easier to see. In support of that decision is my own subjective ability to see all of the features in the original gif, which are made clearer after my minimal enhancements. It seems to me that what should be out of bounds is making any enhancements that actually change the image; that would probably include "smoothing" (and many other features my photo shop is capable of which I don't use on this project) except possibly when posted along side an unaltered image for comparison, or as a kind of key.
Neil
I disagree with almost all of the above explanation, and I am not confused. If there is an S, however vague, in the composite (summed) box a, there are Ss however vague, (or at least component parts of Ss, but this is ulikely because as such they would not have been recognized) in the individuals that make up the average. Matter (or data) can not be created <i>ex nihilo</i>. But I will leave it there.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Tom knows much more about peer-review than myself, but it would be nice if we approached the vigor of review, even if the topic is not currently under review. It would be great to say, "Do this, this, this, and that to a photo and a view of what the naked eye would see from this altitude will be produced." Some folks seem to comment that a lot of doctoring has to be done to view some of these images, and I don't know how to reply to these questions because I remain unclear as to what processes have occurred to the photographs. [Mark]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I use only contrast and brightness, and recently histogram adjustment, to make my croppings easier to see, because I was given to understand the last time this subject was brought up--I believe it was in the "Family" thread--that this does not add any information that is not already contained in the image, except to vary the lighting to make it easier to see. In support of that decision is my own subjective ability to see all of the features in the original gif, which are made clearer after my minimal enhancements. It seems to me that what should be out of bounds is making any enhancements that actually change the image; that would probably include "smoothing" (and many other features my photo shop is capable of which I don't use on this project) except possibly when posted along side an unaltered image for comparison, or as a kind of key.
Neil
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18 years 2 months ago #17479
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by neilderosa</i>
<br />If there is an S, however vague, in the composite (summed) box a, there are Ss however vague, (or at least component parts of Ss, but this is ulikely because as such they would not have been recognized) in the individuals that make up the average.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Yes, that's true that there are components, or "small systematic correlations". But to what? To what they were told to look for. It could have been any letter.
rd
<br />If there is an S, however vague, in the composite (summed) box a, there are Ss however vague, (or at least component parts of Ss, but this is ulikely because as such they would not have been recognized) in the individuals that make up the average.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Yes, that's true that there are components, or "small systematic correlations". But to what? To what they were told to look for. It could have been any letter.
rd
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18 years 2 months ago #9205
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
“The experiment ran on a G4 Macintosh computer using a program written with the Psychophysics Toolbox for Matlab (Brainard, 1997; Pelli, 1997).”
The key to this issue of how one might create 20,000 different “white noise” images <i>ex nihilo</i>, is the “psych” program used in this test. On the KISS principle (keep it simple st….p), I gave the benefit of the doubt and assumed that this program merely “scrambled” the “white noise” 20,000 times to provide a test battery of patterns for the subjects to choose from. But it’s probably not quite that simple in reality. Statisticians could tell us whether it is possible to get enough varying forms by means of a mere random scrambling of “white noise” (black and white) pixels. By that method, it would probably take millions, billions, or many more scrambles, to come up with a few vague Ss for the subjects to recognize. More likely the program creates some type of “Rorschach” array based on some type of pattern recognition principle of psychology (or cognitive science if you prefer).
In any event, no one, I trust, imagines that the same-identical-in-every-way “white noise” image was shown to the subjects 20,000 times so they could “superstitiously” dream that they were seeing a different figure in it each time.
The testers promised that there was no S placed in any of the images, and strictly speaking they are probably correct. But the “psych” program placed varying forms in the 20,000 images, some of which could reasonably be interpreted as vague Ss. The subjects weren’t imagining anything. Remember, no creation <i>ex nihilo</i>. Or as they say in Missouri, you can’t get water out of a broken irrigation machine.
Neil
The key to this issue of how one might create 20,000 different “white noise” images <i>ex nihilo</i>, is the “psych” program used in this test. On the KISS principle (keep it simple st….p), I gave the benefit of the doubt and assumed that this program merely “scrambled” the “white noise” 20,000 times to provide a test battery of patterns for the subjects to choose from. But it’s probably not quite that simple in reality. Statisticians could tell us whether it is possible to get enough varying forms by means of a mere random scrambling of “white noise” (black and white) pixels. By that method, it would probably take millions, billions, or many more scrambles, to come up with a few vague Ss for the subjects to recognize. More likely the program creates some type of “Rorschach” array based on some type of pattern recognition principle of psychology (or cognitive science if you prefer).
In any event, no one, I trust, imagines that the same-identical-in-every-way “white noise” image was shown to the subjects 20,000 times so they could “superstitiously” dream that they were seeing a different figure in it each time.
The testers promised that there was no S placed in any of the images, and strictly speaking they are probably correct. But the “psych” program placed varying forms in the 20,000 images, some of which could reasonably be interpreted as vague Ss. The subjects weren’t imagining anything. Remember, no creation <i>ex nihilo</i>. Or as they say in Missouri, you can’t get water out of a broken irrigation machine.
Neil
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