Infinite Space and Time...How?

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Mac:
Perhaps rush you can tell us "what is there if there is no time or space?" Seems to me it forms a boundry and there is no place for there to exist nothing.
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There are no such places "without time and space". You are making an assumption based on nothing.

Overll, I am inclined to agree with magoo but not in every respect. My qualifier is this. I believe you must try to solve one problem at a time and getting into BB or even pre-BB clouds the issue regarding the nature of our universe.

Clearly these things have different qualities.

Viewed from an enception, call it the BB or some other origin, without time-or space; the enception involved the creation of space itself. To me that is an energy function and time is arbitrary, an illusion of energy transfer throughout the space so created.

It appears possible, if not probable, at this point that what we see is the ongoing creation of space via the Chiral Condensate, which unfortunately takes us back to considering BB and the existance of something which to us currently is nothing. But that is a totally different subject than the universe so created from this CONDENSATE (which for obvious reasons here I will not refer to as nothing. It is just not understood as yet).

Our universe is that which affects our physics, not necessarily what created our physics. Until those two are clearly defined and seperated you are tryiing to seperate oil and water using a large straw.


Mac

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Energy requires no space, without space there is no time. Space and time only came along when the energy started transforming into matter, matter requires space.
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And without the preexistence of time how is something to TRANSFORM? You cannot have a change of state without movement of time. You also state that energy is ETERNAL. In reference to what? It can only be eternal if time is also eternal so that you have something to measure against.

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It doesn't expand <u>INTO</u>, it simply just expands, there is nothing for it to expand "INTO".
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Once again you do not understand the physical meaning of concepts. Expansion is a general increase in coordinate values within a coordinate system. How can the universe be said to "expand" without reference to something that is not expanding? And that something that is not expanding has to have infinite coordinate values in which the universe can "expand" into. No other meaning of expansion makes coherent sense.

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Picture, if you can, an empty balloon. Think of the air outside as if it were "nothing", when the balloon expands <u>it creates space inside</u> everything outside would still be "nothing". Pretty difficult to comprehend but there are people out there who see it that way. Once you understand it, it makes so much sense.
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But the higher dimensional space was already there so that the balloon has something to expand INTO. Big Bang makes a hell of a lot less sense than assuming the universe is static, euclidean and infinite. Your way requires bizarre concepts that are philosophically unsound and unnecessary.

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Jeremy, I can see how you would be upset since your infinite world has just collapsed around you.
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Once again, baseless statements and stone throwing.

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It is not me who is claiming infinite or finite, it is the MM claiming infinity and it is up to the MM to prove such, it cannot be done. There is plenty of proof to show infinity does not exist except on paper in mathematics and not in reality. Even Dr. VanFlandern admits this, he said it in his own words, "Zero and infinity are mathematical descriptions, not things that exist in reality".
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VanFlandern is quite clear in his book that the universe is infinite in extent. You're just looking for the slightest mistatement so that you can post your GOTCHAS. The only thing missing is the tongue sticking out.

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I haven't stated any opinions, all I have done is simply pointed out facts...
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The only facts I have seen is that you use your definitions inconsistently, do not percieve their self referentiality and hip-hop around declaring infinity only possible for those things YOU deem sensible.

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I can't tell you when the physical universe will end but I can tell you that it appears as though your infinite Meta Model universe may be coming to an end soon, as all dreams do.
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Where are the facts in this statement? I repeat my earlier question that you notably ignore: What OBSERVATIONAL evidence do you have that the universe is finite? I have seen no compelling argument so far that precludes the universe from being infinite.

Jereme,

I missed that I thought I saw his tounge.


Mac

I came back in that I thought my example would been better to have said "Seperating Oxygen and Hydrogen from water with a large straw".



Mac

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Mac:
Viewed from an enception, call it the BB or some other origin, without time-or space; the enception involved the creation of space itself. To me that is an energy function and time is arbitrary, an illusion of energy transfer throughout the space so created.
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Think about it Mac. "Creation of space" does not make sense. Space is just HOW matter are distributed forming the Universe. It is not a thing that can be created alone. The length of your body can not exist without your body. I don't know why it is so difficult to get it.