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Meta model and use of Logic
- Quantum_Gravity
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22 years 1 month ago #3498
by Quantum_Gravity
Replied by Quantum_Gravity on topic Reply from Randall damron
[logic+reality=reality(error;0)] [/quote]so it would be fare to say that logic is part of reality most of the time. how much logic needs to go into the experiment. If you do get it off the ground who going to be observing it?
The intuitive mind
The intuitive mind
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22 years 1 month ago #3504
by jimiproton
Replied by jimiproton on topic Reply from James Balderston
quote:
___________________________________________________________________________
quote:
Further reduced: "Logic maps reality to itself."
I refuse to accept the above as a first principle.
___________________________________________________________________________
Even though I abbreviated your own quote, Makis, why do you reject my qualification, since it comes from your own posting?
Logic is not distinguishable from reality if time is quantified in it's true measure of existence; ie. complete (granted, from our standpoint, reality is in flux).
Let me further qualify this: reality is only real if it does not change; and temporal observations show that all that was will not change in it's relationship to our current observations. Time-flow is the same.
The point is that the summation of all things will leave reality and logic on equal footing... it requires an extrapolation from the observer's position, but it is not unreasonable to identify this as a first principle.
ie. time being unchanging in it's (subjective) process, logic maps logic to itself; otherwise what is observed becomes not observable at some point (read anthropomorhphically: "not real").
___________________________________________________________________________
quote:
Further reduced: "Logic maps reality to itself."
I refuse to accept the above as a first principle.
___________________________________________________________________________
Even though I abbreviated your own quote, Makis, why do you reject my qualification, since it comes from your own posting?
Logic is not distinguishable from reality if time is quantified in it's true measure of existence; ie. complete (granted, from our standpoint, reality is in flux).
Let me further qualify this: reality is only real if it does not change; and temporal observations show that all that was will not change in it's relationship to our current observations. Time-flow is the same.
The point is that the summation of all things will leave reality and logic on equal footing... it requires an extrapolation from the observer's position, but it is not unreasonable to identify this as a first principle.
ie. time being unchanging in it's (subjective) process, logic maps logic to itself; otherwise what is observed becomes not observable at some point (read anthropomorhphically: "not real").
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22 years 1 month ago #3900
by jimiproton
Replied by jimiproton on topic Reply from James Balderston
Sorry, Makis; regarding first principles, you were disagreeing with Aristotle, not yourself. My mistake.
I'll leave the rest as my defence of Aristotle...
I'll leave the rest as my defence of Aristotle...
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22 years 1 month ago #3472
by makis
Replied by makis on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Sorry, Makis; regarding first principles, you were disagreeing with Aristotle, not yourself. My mistake
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I do not disagree with Aristotle, nor myself. What I am saying is what Godel and Hilbert said in more formal ways (I guess my interpretion of what they said): No system based on logic can prove its own consistency. Since you are a formidable proponent of Aristotelian logic, what do you say of this?
Sorry, Makis; regarding first principles, you were disagreeing with Aristotle, not yourself. My mistake
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I do not disagree with Aristotle, nor myself. What I am saying is what Godel and Hilbert said in more formal ways (I guess my interpretion of what they said): No system based on logic can prove its own consistency. Since you are a formidable proponent of Aristotelian logic, what do you say of this?
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22 years 1 month ago #3774
by jimiproton
Replied by jimiproton on topic Reply from James Balderston
quote:
____________________________________________________________________________
No system based on logic can prove its own consistency.
____________________________________________________________________________
Yes, this is the question.
Since logic proves its worth in observations, and matter (the object of observation) is infinite and infinitely-divisible, it cannot prove it's consistency.
So logic cannot prove its worth. Is it therefore worthless?
The question now falls onto the neccessity of proofs. They are necessary to obtain a subjective mastery of our observable surroundings.
The objective mastery has never been ceded by the Universe itself. Lack of proofs do not interrupt the operations of the Universe.
I suggest that an infallible mastery of the operations of the Universe lies in the unclouding of the subjective barrier; call it "self," or "ego," or whatever you may.
The Universe does not rely on subjective intellects, but vica versa. Our subjective intellects rely on the constant, ambient, superabundant supply of influx from Universe and its operations.
We should not consider ourselves as distinct from the Universe that we observe, even though our self-awareness demands it.
This fundamental, unchanging relationship of self-to-Universe is a bridging of our opinions, I might suggest.
____________________________________________________________________________
No system based on logic can prove its own consistency.
____________________________________________________________________________
Yes, this is the question.
Since logic proves its worth in observations, and matter (the object of observation) is infinite and infinitely-divisible, it cannot prove it's consistency.
So logic cannot prove its worth. Is it therefore worthless?
The question now falls onto the neccessity of proofs. They are necessary to obtain a subjective mastery of our observable surroundings.
The objective mastery has never been ceded by the Universe itself. Lack of proofs do not interrupt the operations of the Universe.
I suggest that an infallible mastery of the operations of the Universe lies in the unclouding of the subjective barrier; call it "self," or "ego," or whatever you may.
The Universe does not rely on subjective intellects, but vica versa. Our subjective intellects rely on the constant, ambient, superabundant supply of influx from Universe and its operations.
We should not consider ourselves as distinct from the Universe that we observe, even though our self-awareness demands it.
This fundamental, unchanging relationship of self-to-Universe is a bridging of our opinions, I might suggest.
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22 years 1 month ago #3776
by makis
Replied by makis on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The Universe does not rely on subjective intellects, but vica versa. Our subjective intellects rely on the constant, ambient, superabundant supply of influx from Universe and its operations.
We should not consider ourselves as distinct from the Universe that we observe, even though our self-awareness demands it.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
For a moment I thought I was reading Plato. Any idea what is the influx? How I can get a hold of it? That will solve many of my problems.
The Universe does not rely on subjective intellects, but vica versa. Our subjective intellects rely on the constant, ambient, superabundant supply of influx from Universe and its operations.
We should not consider ourselves as distinct from the Universe that we observe, even though our self-awareness demands it.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
For a moment I thought I was reading Plato. Any idea what is the influx? How I can get a hold of it? That will solve many of my problems.
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