- Thank you received: 0
The Big Bang never happened
18 years 7 months ago #10397
by JMB
Replied by JMB on topic Reply from Jacques Moret-Bailly
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tommy</i>
I want to understand for mysekf what is happening, and many times there is someone to help me on my way.
I don't want to argue the ZPE with you, in a sense I sense you are right, but only in the sense that the ZPE is considered a classical field. .... Suddenly there are limits of what can be done and what can't be done.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I almost agree with you. My point on the aether is that we are unable to describe any of its properties, so that I prefer to use Maxwell's equations without any usable hypothesis on a justification of these equations. I do not know whether an electric field IS a physical object or only a mathematical tool, I need only an useful, understandable representation of the nature. it is Newton's "hypothesis non fingo".
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I am not talking about the classical ZPE of ZPF that you are describing. I am not even talking about the source of the ZPE, I am talking about something that I can't talk about except in specific terms and when I do that I am not talking about what I was talking about, anymore.
I wrote Puthoff about what you said. Interestingly he didn't come back with pages of formulas, instead he came back with this --
"Reality of the ZPE for potential application is discussed with regard to a program involving collaboration between our Institute, Lockheed Martin, and other universities - - see attached, just presented at the February mtg of STAIF (Space Technology Applications International Forum)."
Hal
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A lot of people tried to obtain energy without any increase of the entropy of the source of energy. The ZPE obeys thermodynamics, only a Maxwell's daemon can extract a valuable amount of energy from it... But this daemon cannot exist !
I want to understand for mysekf what is happening, and many times there is someone to help me on my way.
I don't want to argue the ZPE with you, in a sense I sense you are right, but only in the sense that the ZPE is considered a classical field. .... Suddenly there are limits of what can be done and what can't be done.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I almost agree with you. My point on the aether is that we are unable to describe any of its properties, so that I prefer to use Maxwell's equations without any usable hypothesis on a justification of these equations. I do not know whether an electric field IS a physical object or only a mathematical tool, I need only an useful, understandable representation of the nature. it is Newton's "hypothesis non fingo".
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I am not talking about the classical ZPE of ZPF that you are describing. I am not even talking about the source of the ZPE, I am talking about something that I can't talk about except in specific terms and when I do that I am not talking about what I was talking about, anymore.
I wrote Puthoff about what you said. Interestingly he didn't come back with pages of formulas, instead he came back with this --
"Reality of the ZPE for potential application is discussed with regard to a program involving collaboration between our Institute, Lockheed Martin, and other universities - - see attached, just presented at the February mtg of STAIF (Space Technology Applications International Forum)."
Hal
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A lot of people tried to obtain energy without any increase of the entropy of the source of energy. The ZPE obeys thermodynamics, only a Maxwell's daemon can extract a valuable amount of energy from it... But this daemon cannot exist !
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
18 years 7 months ago #10409
by Tommy
Replied by Tommy on topic Reply from Thomas Mandel
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I almost agree with you. My point on the aether is that we are unable to describe any of its properties, so that I prefer to use Maxwell's equations without any usable hypothesis on a justification of these equations. I do not know whether an electric field IS a physical object or only a mathematical tool, I need only an useful, understandable representation of the nature. it is Newton's "hypothesis non fingo".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I am grateful for your honesty. There has to be more like you, and just that, your statement, rekindles my trust in science. And your statement is, I think, is very close to the reality. As close as can be accurately stated. Therefore I can say that I almost agree with you too. I believe those unobservable properties occur because of the generality, what's the right word, the,,,"unbounded". That's a good word for it. We can't observe it not because there is nothing to observe, but rather that we can only observe something in particular, and the Aether is nothing in particular.
I've thought about this, and eventually thought that maybe we can observe the interface between Aether, whatever it is, and the physical world. Of course, this would not tell us anything about the Aether specifically, but it can, I think, by inference tell us with certainty that there is something there. I think that is what I want to say most of all, that there is certainly something there.Here. Inside. Well you know what I mean. That is what I am certain about and all I am certain about. I don't know what it is either, I can guess, but I don't really know. I do know it is something.
Not content with just that though, I want to know more. So far, I can trace it to Maxwell's displacement currents. I think.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I am grateful for your honesty. There has to be more like you, and just that, your statement, rekindles my trust in science. And your statement is, I think, is very close to the reality. As close as can be accurately stated. Therefore I can say that I almost agree with you too. I believe those unobservable properties occur because of the generality, what's the right word, the,,,"unbounded". That's a good word for it. We can't observe it not because there is nothing to observe, but rather that we can only observe something in particular, and the Aether is nothing in particular.
I've thought about this, and eventually thought that maybe we can observe the interface between Aether, whatever it is, and the physical world. Of course, this would not tell us anything about the Aether specifically, but it can, I think, by inference tell us with certainty that there is something there. I think that is what I want to say most of all, that there is certainly something there.Here. Inside. Well you know what I mean. That is what I am certain about and all I am certain about. I don't know what it is either, I can guess, but I don't really know. I do know it is something.
Not content with just that though, I want to know more. So far, I can trace it to Maxwell's displacement currents. I think.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
18 years 6 months ago #10509
by Tommy
Replied by Tommy on topic Reply from Thomas Mandel
I moved this from redshift anomaly to focus on reference material here. I also discovered the printer friendly tag.
Hoagland's Hyperdimensional cosmogny
Reply author: Tommy
Replied on: 31 Mar 2006 20:57:22
Message:
It has always been assumed, by some, that space was empty. Indeed, if we look closely between our outstretched hands, the space inbetween looks empty. But it can also be assumed, and quite a few do assume, that space is full. Have you ever wondered how an atom can move around forever? In 1987, Hal Puthoff wrote the paper showing that the atom get an energy from the ZPE. So space turns out to be an energy.
The significance of this to cosmology is that now we have the mechanism which accounts for the tremendous outflowing of matter/energy from the center of the Galaxy. And a major prediction that the centers of Galaxies are ejecting matter, not sucking it in.
The following is from an introduction to Hoagland's introduction to what he calls hyperdimensional space. The source for plasma energies...
quote:
Via < www.enterprisemission.com/hyper1.html> ; -- and the continuation of the narrative on subsequent webpages -- Hoagland goes on to discuss the following:
z “Vortex atoms” -- tiny, self-sustaining “whirlpools” in the so-called ether -- one envisioned by William Thompson (1867), which he and his 19th Century contemporaries “increasingly believed extended throughout the Universe as an all-pervasive, incompressible fluid.” The latter included James Clerk Maxwell -- undoubtedly the patron saint of modern electromagnetic theory -- who developed a mechanical vortex model of an incompressible ether in which Thompson’s vortex atom could exist.
z The use by Maxwell of quaternions (ordered pairs of complex numbers), who made it clear in his writings that his choice of quaternions as mathematical operators was predicated on his belief that three-dimensional physical phenomena -- including quite possibly human Consciousness -- was dependent upon higher dimensional realities! Some of these writings are included herein as Hyperdimensional Poetry. A brief diversion.
z The disastrous “streamlining” after Maxwell’s death of his quaternion equations by two 19th Century so-called mathematical physicists, Oliver Heaviside and William Gibbs, who simplified to extinction the original equations and left four simple (if woefully incomplete!) expressions. This was done by Heaviside’s drastic editing of Maxwell’s original work after the latter’s untimely death from cancer. The four surviving, “classic” Maxwell’s Equations -- which appear in every electrical and physics text the world over, became the underpinnings of all 20th Century electrical and electromagnetic engineering -- from radio to radar, television to computer science, and were inclusive of every hard science from physics to chemistry to astrophysics that deals with electromagnetic radiative processes. The classic equations never appeared in any of Maxwell’s papers or treatises!
z The introduction in 1854 by Georg Bernard Riemann the idea of hyperspace, i.e. the description and possibility of “higher, unseen dimensions”, a fundamental assault on the 2000-year old assumptions of Euclid’s The Elements -- the ordered, rectilinear laws of ordinary three dimensional reality. “In its place, Riemann proposed a four-dimensional reality (of which our 3-D reality was merely a ‘subset’), in which the geometric rules were radically different, but also internally self-consistent. Even more radical: Riemann proposed that the basic laws of nature in 3-space, the three mysterious forces then known to physics -- electrostatics, magnetism and gravity -- were all fundamentally united in 4-space, and merely ‘looked different’ because of the resulting ‘crumpled geometry’ of our three-dimensional reality...” In lieu of Newton’s “action-at-a-distance theories, Riemann was proposing that all such apparent forces were the result of objects moving through three dimensions, but distorted by an intruding geometry of 4-space.
z The fundamental problem of an alleged lack of experimental or experiential evidence of a fourth spacial dimension. This was addressed in part in 1919 by Theodr Kaluza, who suggested a solution to the mathematical unification of Einstein’s theory of gravity with Maxwell’s theory of electromagnetic radiation, via the introduction of an additional spacial dimension. Kaluza also proposed that the additional spacial dimension had somehow collapsed down to a tiny circle -- an idea now prevalent in Superstrings! This idea was expanded in 1926 by Oskar Klein, who applied the idea to Quantum Physics and came up with the idea that Kaluza’s new dimension had somehow collapsed down to the “Planck length” itself -- supposedly the smallest possible size allowed by quantum interactions -- thereby tying in with Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle.
z A rebirth of hyperdimensional physics in the guise of Superstrings (beginning in 1968), in which fundamental particles and fields are viewed as hyperspace vibrations of infinitesimally small, multi-dimensional strings -- with updated versions of the old Kaluza-Klein theory; discussions of a modern supergravity hyperspace unification model; and the exotic “String Theory” itself. The enormous increase in interest represents a fundamental revolution within a major segment of the worldwide scientific community. A significant factor is the number of dimensions: 10 (or 26, depending on strings rotation). And still, all additional dimensions are still within the Planck length!
z Discussions by Thomas E. Bearden, including, “Maxwell’s original theory is, in fact, the true, so-called ‘Holy Grail’ of physics... the first successful unified field theory in the history of Science... a fact apparently completely unknown to the current proponents of ‘Kaluza-Klein,’ ‘Supergravity,’ and ‘Superstring’ ideas....” “...In discarding the scalar component of the quaternion, Heaviside and Gibbs unwittingly discarded the unified electromagnetic/gravitational portion of Maxwell’s theory.” “The simple vector equations produced by Heaviside and Gibbs captured only that subset of Maxwell’s theory where EM and gravitation are mutually exclusive. In that subset, electromagnetic circuits and equipment will not ever, and cannot ever, produce gravitational or inertial effects in materials and equipment.”
z The unwarranted restriction of Maxwell’s theory, also impacted Einstein who restricted his theory of general relativity, and thus by fiat prevented the unification of electromagnetics and relativity -- as well as experimental evidence of the general theory due to any local spacetime curvature being excluded.
z The exclusion by quantum physicists of Bohm’s hidden variable theory, “which conceivably could have offered the potential of engineering quantum change -- engineering physical reality itself.” “Each of these major scientific disciplines missed and excluded a subset of their disciplinary area...”
z The loss to science by the limiting of Maxwell’s equations of: The electrogravitic control of gravity itself, in effect, the ability to curve local and/or distant spacetime with electromagnetic radiation. “Whittaker accomplished this by demonstrating mathematically that ‘the field of force due to a gravitating body can be analyzed, by a spectrum analysis’ into an infinite number of constituent fields; and although the whole field of force does not vary with time, yet each of the constituent fields is an undulatory character, consisting of a simple-disturbance propagated with uniform velocity.” [emphasis added] Significantly, the waves would be longitudinal and require gravity to be propagated with a finite velocity, which however did not have to be the same as that of light, and in fact may be enormously greater.
z The measurement of the hidden potential of free space by Yakir Aharonov and David Bohm in 1959, the resulting “Aharonov-Bohm Effect” providing compelling proof of a “deeper spatial strain -- a scalar potential -- underlying the existence of a so-called magnetic force-field itself. This potential is equivalent to the unseen, vorticular stress in space first envisioned by Thompson.” “And stresses, when they are relieved, must release energy into their surroundings!”
z Quantum Electrodynamics Zero Point Energy of space -- vacuum energy -- in which is created, then relieved stresses in Maxwell’s voticular ether (a process equivalent to tapping the energy of the vacuum -- a vacuum which, according to quantum physics, possesses a staggering amount of such energy per cubic inch of space.
z “Given the prodigious amount of ‘vacuum energy’ calculated by modern physicists (trillions of atomic bomb equivalents per cubic centimeter...), even a relatively minor but sudden release of such vast vacuum (ether) stress potential inside a planet... could literally destroy it.” Or alternatively, in a far more controlled fashion, provide the anomalous infrared energy output of the planets Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, and Jupiter; or even the same source of energy for stars, including the Sun.
Hoagland's Hyperdimensional cosmogny
Reply author: Tommy
Replied on: 31 Mar 2006 20:57:22
Message:
It has always been assumed, by some, that space was empty. Indeed, if we look closely between our outstretched hands, the space inbetween looks empty. But it can also be assumed, and quite a few do assume, that space is full. Have you ever wondered how an atom can move around forever? In 1987, Hal Puthoff wrote the paper showing that the atom get an energy from the ZPE. So space turns out to be an energy.
The significance of this to cosmology is that now we have the mechanism which accounts for the tremendous outflowing of matter/energy from the center of the Galaxy. And a major prediction that the centers of Galaxies are ejecting matter, not sucking it in.
The following is from an introduction to Hoagland's introduction to what he calls hyperdimensional space. The source for plasma energies...
quote:
Via < www.enterprisemission.com/hyper1.html> ; -- and the continuation of the narrative on subsequent webpages -- Hoagland goes on to discuss the following:
z “Vortex atoms” -- tiny, self-sustaining “whirlpools” in the so-called ether -- one envisioned by William Thompson (1867), which he and his 19th Century contemporaries “increasingly believed extended throughout the Universe as an all-pervasive, incompressible fluid.” The latter included James Clerk Maxwell -- undoubtedly the patron saint of modern electromagnetic theory -- who developed a mechanical vortex model of an incompressible ether in which Thompson’s vortex atom could exist.
z The use by Maxwell of quaternions (ordered pairs of complex numbers), who made it clear in his writings that his choice of quaternions as mathematical operators was predicated on his belief that three-dimensional physical phenomena -- including quite possibly human Consciousness -- was dependent upon higher dimensional realities! Some of these writings are included herein as Hyperdimensional Poetry. A brief diversion.
z The disastrous “streamlining” after Maxwell’s death of his quaternion equations by two 19th Century so-called mathematical physicists, Oliver Heaviside and William Gibbs, who simplified to extinction the original equations and left four simple (if woefully incomplete!) expressions. This was done by Heaviside’s drastic editing of Maxwell’s original work after the latter’s untimely death from cancer. The four surviving, “classic” Maxwell’s Equations -- which appear in every electrical and physics text the world over, became the underpinnings of all 20th Century electrical and electromagnetic engineering -- from radio to radar, television to computer science, and were inclusive of every hard science from physics to chemistry to astrophysics that deals with electromagnetic radiative processes. The classic equations never appeared in any of Maxwell’s papers or treatises!
z The introduction in 1854 by Georg Bernard Riemann the idea of hyperspace, i.e. the description and possibility of “higher, unseen dimensions”, a fundamental assault on the 2000-year old assumptions of Euclid’s The Elements -- the ordered, rectilinear laws of ordinary three dimensional reality. “In its place, Riemann proposed a four-dimensional reality (of which our 3-D reality was merely a ‘subset’), in which the geometric rules were radically different, but also internally self-consistent. Even more radical: Riemann proposed that the basic laws of nature in 3-space, the three mysterious forces then known to physics -- electrostatics, magnetism and gravity -- were all fundamentally united in 4-space, and merely ‘looked different’ because of the resulting ‘crumpled geometry’ of our three-dimensional reality...” In lieu of Newton’s “action-at-a-distance theories, Riemann was proposing that all such apparent forces were the result of objects moving through three dimensions, but distorted by an intruding geometry of 4-space.
z The fundamental problem of an alleged lack of experimental or experiential evidence of a fourth spacial dimension. This was addressed in part in 1919 by Theodr Kaluza, who suggested a solution to the mathematical unification of Einstein’s theory of gravity with Maxwell’s theory of electromagnetic radiation, via the introduction of an additional spacial dimension. Kaluza also proposed that the additional spacial dimension had somehow collapsed down to a tiny circle -- an idea now prevalent in Superstrings! This idea was expanded in 1926 by Oskar Klein, who applied the idea to Quantum Physics and came up with the idea that Kaluza’s new dimension had somehow collapsed down to the “Planck length” itself -- supposedly the smallest possible size allowed by quantum interactions -- thereby tying in with Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle.
z A rebirth of hyperdimensional physics in the guise of Superstrings (beginning in 1968), in which fundamental particles and fields are viewed as hyperspace vibrations of infinitesimally small, multi-dimensional strings -- with updated versions of the old Kaluza-Klein theory; discussions of a modern supergravity hyperspace unification model; and the exotic “String Theory” itself. The enormous increase in interest represents a fundamental revolution within a major segment of the worldwide scientific community. A significant factor is the number of dimensions: 10 (or 26, depending on strings rotation). And still, all additional dimensions are still within the Planck length!
z Discussions by Thomas E. Bearden, including, “Maxwell’s original theory is, in fact, the true, so-called ‘Holy Grail’ of physics... the first successful unified field theory in the history of Science... a fact apparently completely unknown to the current proponents of ‘Kaluza-Klein,’ ‘Supergravity,’ and ‘Superstring’ ideas....” “...In discarding the scalar component of the quaternion, Heaviside and Gibbs unwittingly discarded the unified electromagnetic/gravitational portion of Maxwell’s theory.” “The simple vector equations produced by Heaviside and Gibbs captured only that subset of Maxwell’s theory where EM and gravitation are mutually exclusive. In that subset, electromagnetic circuits and equipment will not ever, and cannot ever, produce gravitational or inertial effects in materials and equipment.”
z The unwarranted restriction of Maxwell’s theory, also impacted Einstein who restricted his theory of general relativity, and thus by fiat prevented the unification of electromagnetics and relativity -- as well as experimental evidence of the general theory due to any local spacetime curvature being excluded.
z The exclusion by quantum physicists of Bohm’s hidden variable theory, “which conceivably could have offered the potential of engineering quantum change -- engineering physical reality itself.” “Each of these major scientific disciplines missed and excluded a subset of their disciplinary area...”
z The loss to science by the limiting of Maxwell’s equations of: The electrogravitic control of gravity itself, in effect, the ability to curve local and/or distant spacetime with electromagnetic radiation. “Whittaker accomplished this by demonstrating mathematically that ‘the field of force due to a gravitating body can be analyzed, by a spectrum analysis’ into an infinite number of constituent fields; and although the whole field of force does not vary with time, yet each of the constituent fields is an undulatory character, consisting of a simple-disturbance propagated with uniform velocity.” [emphasis added] Significantly, the waves would be longitudinal and require gravity to be propagated with a finite velocity, which however did not have to be the same as that of light, and in fact may be enormously greater.
z The measurement of the hidden potential of free space by Yakir Aharonov and David Bohm in 1959, the resulting “Aharonov-Bohm Effect” providing compelling proof of a “deeper spatial strain -- a scalar potential -- underlying the existence of a so-called magnetic force-field itself. This potential is equivalent to the unseen, vorticular stress in space first envisioned by Thompson.” “And stresses, when they are relieved, must release energy into their surroundings!”
z Quantum Electrodynamics Zero Point Energy of space -- vacuum energy -- in which is created, then relieved stresses in Maxwell’s voticular ether (a process equivalent to tapping the energy of the vacuum -- a vacuum which, according to quantum physics, possesses a staggering amount of such energy per cubic inch of space.
z “Given the prodigious amount of ‘vacuum energy’ calculated by modern physicists (trillions of atomic bomb equivalents per cubic centimeter...), even a relatively minor but sudden release of such vast vacuum (ether) stress potential inside a planet... could literally destroy it.” Or alternatively, in a far more controlled fashion, provide the anomalous infrared energy output of the planets Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, and Jupiter; or even the same source of energy for stars, including the Sun.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
18 years 6 months ago #10512
by JMB
Replied by JMB on topic Reply from Jacques Moret-Bailly
Although I was mainly a theoretician, I am generally very sceptic about new theories ... Thus, the following comments are probably too careful !
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tommy</i>
It has always been assumed, by some, that space was empty. Indeed, if we look closely between our outstretched hands, the space inbetween looks empty. But it can also be assumed, and quite a few do assume, that space is full. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The study of the spectrum of a micro-quasar, taking into account the CREIL effect (which is a direct application of standard coherent light-matter interactions) shows that they become quasars if they are embedded in a cloud of hydrogen. There are two main types of quasars: quasars bound to galaxies and isolated quasars whose repartition is isotropic. It seems that the isolated quasars are bound to our galaxy, so that it seems that the micro-quasars (which are fast moving neutron stars) become quasars when they leave their galaxy. A possible conclusion may be: there is much more diffuse hydrogen out of the galaxies than inside... maybe, the galaxies are not regions where there is a larger mean density of usual matter, but regions where the matter agglomerates.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Have you ever wondered how an atom can move around forever? In 1987, Hal Puthoff wrote the paper showing that the atom get an energy from the ZPE. So space turns out to be an energy. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A lot of absurdities are written about the ZPE. Nernst showed that the energy in an electromagnetic mode has a minimal mean energy, the ZPE. By definition of an optical mode, the EM field in a mode depends on a SINGLE real parameter, the mode-amplitude (or the temperature plus a sign: this allows the eccentrics introduce negative temperatures!). Nernst's result shows that the mode-amplitude has a minimal mean value. The zero point EM field is an ordinary field, corresponding to this minimal value; other values correspond to hotter fields ...
This applies supposing that Maxwell's equations are linear in the vacuum. But they are not at very high energies, because electron pairs may be produced by pure EM fields. It is possible to build (3+0)D solitons (that is particles) of the EM field introducing nonlinear permeabilities and permittivities for the vacuum, from (2+1)D solitons ( in matter, light filaments well known in optics). It is possible to imagine that the neutrinos are such space-limited filaments whose interactions (= transformations of the types of neutrinos which are observed) could finally produce ordinary matter. Be careful !
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
z The introduction in 1854 by Georg Bernard Riemann the idea of hyperspace,...” In lieu of Newton’s “action-at-a-distance theories, Riemann was proposing that all such apparent forces were the result of objects moving through three dimensions, but distorted by an intruding geometry of 4-space.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
We may use different mathematical tools to get the same result. Pay attention: has the world space a physical meaning ?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The use by Maxwell of quaternions ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
An old mathematical tool. Using matrices is generally preferred now.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The exclusion by quantum physicists of Bohm’s hidden variable theory, “which conceivably could have offered the potential of engineering quantum change -- engineering physical reality itself.”
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The solitons solve the wave-particle duality problem rigorously. De Broglie's and Bohm's ideas are history.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Quantum Electrodynamics Zero Point Energy of space
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The ZPE allowed to set QED identifying the energy in a mode with the energy of an harmonic oscillator.
Else, how could Nernst compute the ZPE more than 10 years before QED ? Learn old physics (modes...)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
“Given the prodigious amount of ‘vacuum energy’ calculated by modern physicists ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Nernst worked on the ZPE in 1916. From thermodynamics and Einstein (1917), the ZPE cannot be used. Maybe interesting at very high frequencies ...
I think that it is necessary to know exactly the meaning of the words and more, of the concepts we use, going at their source. If we are not very careful, we may build a religion such as the BB and the principles of quantum mechanics (listen the anathema uttered by their defenders).
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tommy</i>
It has always been assumed, by some, that space was empty. Indeed, if we look closely between our outstretched hands, the space inbetween looks empty. But it can also be assumed, and quite a few do assume, that space is full. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The study of the spectrum of a micro-quasar, taking into account the CREIL effect (which is a direct application of standard coherent light-matter interactions) shows that they become quasars if they are embedded in a cloud of hydrogen. There are two main types of quasars: quasars bound to galaxies and isolated quasars whose repartition is isotropic. It seems that the isolated quasars are bound to our galaxy, so that it seems that the micro-quasars (which are fast moving neutron stars) become quasars when they leave their galaxy. A possible conclusion may be: there is much more diffuse hydrogen out of the galaxies than inside... maybe, the galaxies are not regions where there is a larger mean density of usual matter, but regions where the matter agglomerates.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Have you ever wondered how an atom can move around forever? In 1987, Hal Puthoff wrote the paper showing that the atom get an energy from the ZPE. So space turns out to be an energy. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A lot of absurdities are written about the ZPE. Nernst showed that the energy in an electromagnetic mode has a minimal mean energy, the ZPE. By definition of an optical mode, the EM field in a mode depends on a SINGLE real parameter, the mode-amplitude (or the temperature plus a sign: this allows the eccentrics introduce negative temperatures!). Nernst's result shows that the mode-amplitude has a minimal mean value. The zero point EM field is an ordinary field, corresponding to this minimal value; other values correspond to hotter fields ...
This applies supposing that Maxwell's equations are linear in the vacuum. But they are not at very high energies, because electron pairs may be produced by pure EM fields. It is possible to build (3+0)D solitons (that is particles) of the EM field introducing nonlinear permeabilities and permittivities for the vacuum, from (2+1)D solitons ( in matter, light filaments well known in optics). It is possible to imagine that the neutrinos are such space-limited filaments whose interactions (= transformations of the types of neutrinos which are observed) could finally produce ordinary matter. Be careful !
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
z The introduction in 1854 by Georg Bernard Riemann the idea of hyperspace,...” In lieu of Newton’s “action-at-a-distance theories, Riemann was proposing that all such apparent forces were the result of objects moving through three dimensions, but distorted by an intruding geometry of 4-space.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
We may use different mathematical tools to get the same result. Pay attention: has the world space a physical meaning ?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The use by Maxwell of quaternions ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
An old mathematical tool. Using matrices is generally preferred now.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The exclusion by quantum physicists of Bohm’s hidden variable theory, “which conceivably could have offered the potential of engineering quantum change -- engineering physical reality itself.”
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The solitons solve the wave-particle duality problem rigorously. De Broglie's and Bohm's ideas are history.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Quantum Electrodynamics Zero Point Energy of space
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The ZPE allowed to set QED identifying the energy in a mode with the energy of an harmonic oscillator.
Else, how could Nernst compute the ZPE more than 10 years before QED ? Learn old physics (modes...)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
“Given the prodigious amount of ‘vacuum energy’ calculated by modern physicists ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Nernst worked on the ZPE in 1916. From thermodynamics and Einstein (1917), the ZPE cannot be used. Maybe interesting at very high frequencies ...
I think that it is necessary to know exactly the meaning of the words and more, of the concepts we use, going at their source. If we are not very careful, we may build a religion such as the BB and the principles of quantum mechanics (listen the anathema uttered by their defenders).
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
18 years 6 months ago #10519
by Tommy
Replied by Tommy on topic Reply from Thomas Mandel
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think that it is necessary to know exactly the meaning of the words and more, of the concepts we use, going at their source. If we are not very careful, we may build a religion such as the BB and the principles of quantum mechanics (listen the anathema uttered by their defenders).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
It certainly can be helpful if those who speak of something have the same thing in mind. You talk about a physical field that happens to be around when there is little else. What is the source of this field?
You say that a lot has been said of the ZPE that is absurd. But what about life without the ZPE? Saying that atoms self-exsist forever sounds just as absurd to me. Two absurds cancel, we are still left with the question of what is happening.
I also appreciate your wish to remain physical as opposed to metaphysical. Granted, I am Eastern philosophy orientated, but of those Zen gets closer. If you know Zen, you know the experience rules.
But I would like to point out that the principle of emergence enables a couple physicals to form a relationship with emergent properities which when taken as a whole have new unique properties which cannot be found in the original physical parts. These words were physically created, does that physicality preclude their obviously non-physical meanings?
So I am very comfortable imagining that there is more than just space and matter. I would have to say that I imagine space and matter working together somehow. And that tells me that space is something else anyhow.
The big question that everyone was asking when Aether was popular was "Where is it?" That's a fair question, and when I asked it my answer was INSIDE space.
That's when Hal Puthoff wrote and told me of his paper showing how the ground state of the hydrogen atom is balanced by a flow of energy from or through the ZPE.
As we see, citing the ZPE has its problems. But that is true whatever we choose to call it. And that is precisely why I like to call it simply the INSIDE of space. And the reason I cannot call it something other, is that any other has limitations and constraints which may apply in one case and not in another. This is a scientific problem that is delt with by the scientist "Of which I do not know, I speak not." Unfortunately there are a thousand less than scientist perfectly willing to say something about what they do not know.
It may very well be that the INSIDE is not anything in particular which I admit poses a big problem for the scientist who needs something to test.
It certainly can be helpful if those who speak of something have the same thing in mind. You talk about a physical field that happens to be around when there is little else. What is the source of this field?
You say that a lot has been said of the ZPE that is absurd. But what about life without the ZPE? Saying that atoms self-exsist forever sounds just as absurd to me. Two absurds cancel, we are still left with the question of what is happening.
I also appreciate your wish to remain physical as opposed to metaphysical. Granted, I am Eastern philosophy orientated, but of those Zen gets closer. If you know Zen, you know the experience rules.
But I would like to point out that the principle of emergence enables a couple physicals to form a relationship with emergent properities which when taken as a whole have new unique properties which cannot be found in the original physical parts. These words were physically created, does that physicality preclude their obviously non-physical meanings?
So I am very comfortable imagining that there is more than just space and matter. I would have to say that I imagine space and matter working together somehow. And that tells me that space is something else anyhow.
The big question that everyone was asking when Aether was popular was "Where is it?" That's a fair question, and when I asked it my answer was INSIDE space.
That's when Hal Puthoff wrote and told me of his paper showing how the ground state of the hydrogen atom is balanced by a flow of energy from or through the ZPE.
As we see, citing the ZPE has its problems. But that is true whatever we choose to call it. And that is precisely why I like to call it simply the INSIDE of space. And the reason I cannot call it something other, is that any other has limitations and constraints which may apply in one case and not in another. This is a scientific problem that is delt with by the scientist "Of which I do not know, I speak not." Unfortunately there are a thousand less than scientist perfectly willing to say something about what they do not know.
It may very well be that the INSIDE is not anything in particular which I admit poses a big problem for the scientist who needs something to test.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
18 years 6 months ago #10520
by JMB
Replied by JMB on topic Reply from Jacques Moret-Bailly
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tommy</i>
... You talk about a physical field that happens to be around when there is little else. What is the source of this field?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">To absorb a field, you must generate an opposite field. It is impossible to generate a field opposite to the field radiated by a dipole using other, far dipoles: therefore, the fields emitted by the atoms cannot be fully absorbed, it remains a stochastic field.
This stochastic field plays the role of a thermal bath; if an atom emits a quantum of energy, the mean level of the field is increased, so that the probability of an absorption of a quantum is increased.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
You say that a lot has been said of the ZPE that is absurd. But what about life without the ZPE? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If we consider Bohr's model of H atom, the electron radiates a field. Without ZPE, this radiation corresponds to a loss of energy, the electron falls to the proton; with the ZPE, the radiated field interferes with the ZPE, so that no energy is radiated (more precisely, it is necessary to correct slightly Bohr's atom with Lamb's energy).
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Saying that atoms self-exsist forever sounds just as absurd to me. Two absurds cancel, we are still left with the question of what is happening.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">It is the problem of the hen and the egg: both atoms and ZPE are necessary for a coherent physical representation.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I would like to point out that the principle of emergence enables a couple physicals to form a relationship with emergent properities which when taken as a whole have new unique properties which cannot be found in the original physical parts. These words were physically created, does that physicality preclude their obviously non-physical meanings? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Using the laws of physics to find something new, there are two possibilities:
i) the "new" is a discovery, the theory works, it is good.
ii) the experiment shows a failure. It is better, allowing to improve the old physical laws. It may be known that these old laws are approximate; In the case of electromagnetism in the vacuum, there is a single known failure: at very high energy with the creation of electron pairs.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
So I am very comfortable imagining that there is more than just space and matter. I would have to say that I imagine space and matter working together somehow. And that tells me that space is something else anyhow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Too philosophical for me. I only use the properties of space and matter...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The big question that everyone was asking when Aether was popular was "Where is it?" That's a fair question, and when I asked it my answer was INSIDE space.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I know Maxwell's equations, their invariances by time-space transformations. I am unable to give a philosophical interpretation of these laws.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
That's when Hal Puthoff wrote and told me of his paper showing how the ground state of the hydrogen atom is balanced by a flow of energy from or through the ZPE.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I have just written how the ZPE is necessary for the stability of hydrogen atom.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
As we see, citing the ZPE has its problems.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">My criticizing of the ZPE may appear ambiguous: for me, the ZPE exists only in a 0 K blackbody; but, at higher temperature, the field is necessarily larger than the ZPE, following Planck's law with the additive constant whose value was computed wrongly by Planck, correctly by Nernst: in a mode, the energy is hf(1/((exp(w/kT)-1)+1/2).
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
But that is true whatever we choose to call it. And that is precisely why I like to call it simply the INSIDE of space.
It may very well be that the INSIDE is not anything in particular which I admit poses a big problem for the scientist who needs something to test.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If I understand you, I am only interested by the INSIDE.
... You talk about a physical field that happens to be around when there is little else. What is the source of this field?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">To absorb a field, you must generate an opposite field. It is impossible to generate a field opposite to the field radiated by a dipole using other, far dipoles: therefore, the fields emitted by the atoms cannot be fully absorbed, it remains a stochastic field.
This stochastic field plays the role of a thermal bath; if an atom emits a quantum of energy, the mean level of the field is increased, so that the probability of an absorption of a quantum is increased.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
You say that a lot has been said of the ZPE that is absurd. But what about life without the ZPE? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If we consider Bohr's model of H atom, the electron radiates a field. Without ZPE, this radiation corresponds to a loss of energy, the electron falls to the proton; with the ZPE, the radiated field interferes with the ZPE, so that no energy is radiated (more precisely, it is necessary to correct slightly Bohr's atom with Lamb's energy).
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Saying that atoms self-exsist forever sounds just as absurd to me. Two absurds cancel, we are still left with the question of what is happening.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">It is the problem of the hen and the egg: both atoms and ZPE are necessary for a coherent physical representation.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I would like to point out that the principle of emergence enables a couple physicals to form a relationship with emergent properities which when taken as a whole have new unique properties which cannot be found in the original physical parts. These words were physically created, does that physicality preclude their obviously non-physical meanings? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Using the laws of physics to find something new, there are two possibilities:
i) the "new" is a discovery, the theory works, it is good.
ii) the experiment shows a failure. It is better, allowing to improve the old physical laws. It may be known that these old laws are approximate; In the case of electromagnetism in the vacuum, there is a single known failure: at very high energy with the creation of electron pairs.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
So I am very comfortable imagining that there is more than just space and matter. I would have to say that I imagine space and matter working together somehow. And that tells me that space is something else anyhow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Too philosophical for me. I only use the properties of space and matter...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The big question that everyone was asking when Aether was popular was "Where is it?" That's a fair question, and when I asked it my answer was INSIDE space.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I know Maxwell's equations, their invariances by time-space transformations. I am unable to give a philosophical interpretation of these laws.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
That's when Hal Puthoff wrote and told me of his paper showing how the ground state of the hydrogen atom is balanced by a flow of energy from or through the ZPE.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I have just written how the ZPE is necessary for the stability of hydrogen atom.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
As we see, citing the ZPE has its problems.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">My criticizing of the ZPE may appear ambiguous: for me, the ZPE exists only in a 0 K blackbody; but, at higher temperature, the field is necessarily larger than the ZPE, following Planck's law with the additive constant whose value was computed wrongly by Planck, correctly by Nernst: in a mode, the energy is hf(1/((exp(w/kT)-1)+1/2).
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
But that is true whatever we choose to call it. And that is precisely why I like to call it simply the INSIDE of space.
It may very well be that the INSIDE is not anything in particular which I admit poses a big problem for the scientist who needs something to test.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If I understand you, I am only interested by the INSIDE.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Time to create page: 0.433 seconds