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18 years 4 months ago #15910
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Suppose, just for argument sake, two things.
One, NASA/JPL editors really, sincerely, in their heart of hearts, do not believe in the artificiality theory. In other words, they "know" there's no such thing as life on Mars, not now, not ever, and therefore there are no artworks, period.
Two, suppose as they are looking through images, they see something that "really" looks like a baby, even to them.
What would they do? If they leave it, they conclude, it's grist for our mill, so they blank it out, as a favor to humanity. Save the little folk from hurting themselves. [RD]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A wise old woman once told me, (you know who Rich), Man's ability to rationalize is almost infinate.
Neil
One, NASA/JPL editors really, sincerely, in their heart of hearts, do not believe in the artificiality theory. In other words, they "know" there's no such thing as life on Mars, not now, not ever, and therefore there are no artworks, period.
Two, suppose as they are looking through images, they see something that "really" looks like a baby, even to them.
What would they do? If they leave it, they conclude, it's grist for our mill, so they blank it out, as a favor to humanity. Save the little folk from hurting themselves. [RD]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A wise old woman once told me, (you know who Rich), Man's ability to rationalize is almost infinate.
Neil
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18 years 4 months ago #8892
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Instead of allowing yourself to indulge in unproductive and side-tracking hypotheses and having to reality-test them (or worse, not reality-testing them), why not take a more pro-active approach, such as JP Levasseur has? Join the "request an image" program and ask JPL to take another image of any area you want one so you can find out what was in the missing data. Tom <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I did this Re: the T or E. I emailed it, and then I faxed it. (No phone number and no address was given; why not?) I received no reply, no acknowledgement of request--ever. In all of my long dealings with vendors in corporations large and small, only government and bureaucracies can operate this way and get away with it. They have no accountability, save congress and the press (the trick is to get the press interested.)
Neil
I did this Re: the T or E. I emailed it, and then I faxed it. (No phone number and no address was given; why not?) I received no reply, no acknowledgement of request--ever. In all of my long dealings with vendors in corporations large and small, only government and bureaucracies can operate this way and get away with it. They have no accountability, save congress and the press (the trick is to get the press interested.)
Neil
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18 years 4 months ago #8893
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by neilderosa</i>
<br />I did this Re: the T or E. I emailed it, and then I faxed it. (No phone number and no address was given; why not?)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If it's not funded, it gets ignored. That is normally written into the contract they are operating under, but in legalistic language, not layman's terms.
To get action, you must study the process they set up for public requests, and submit a request in the specified format, providing all the information required. You must assume that no human will get involved.
The general rule in dealing successfully with bureaucracies is to make yours the path of least resistance. If you do the onerous work for them, then honoring your request is less work than rejecting it because you can always write your Congressman and complain if they don't perform the funded public-request program as required. However, do not expect a response in any case. Your image will simply show up some day. Remember, it may take many months to get an overflight of your target, longer if the season is wrong. -|Tom|-
<br />I did this Re: the T or E. I emailed it, and then I faxed it. (No phone number and no address was given; why not?)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If it's not funded, it gets ignored. That is normally written into the contract they are operating under, but in legalistic language, not layman's terms.
To get action, you must study the process they set up for public requests, and submit a request in the specified format, providing all the information required. You must assume that no human will get involved.
The general rule in dealing successfully with bureaucracies is to make yours the path of least resistance. If you do the onerous work for them, then honoring your request is less work than rejecting it because you can always write your Congressman and complain if they don't perform the funded public-request program as required. However, do not expect a response in any case. Your image will simply show up some day. Remember, it may take many months to get an overflight of your target, longer if the season is wrong. -|Tom|-
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18 years 4 months ago #15911
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br />Life is about forming hypotheses. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I can't argue with anything you just said. Except maybe to point out that I've already seen many instances of image "blanking" that is obviously <b>not </b>hiding something, so it's very difficult to imagine what rule we would use in the hypothesis. Some selective blanking could easily be lost in the noise of real blanking.
As far as the image request part of it goes, let's just say I think we already discussed how seriously JPL takes the issue of high resolution public research requests. Didn't you say something about how they'd rather spend the time letting Kindergartners run the controls?
Regarding testing controls, I agree in principle, but I also believe there are cases where an intelligent human can look at the results at the end of the test and "interpret" them, above and beyond the obvious "black box" point of view.
Let me give you a simple example. In the early years of automation, when Autofocus, AutoMeasure, Pattern Recognition and Recipes where first being developed, it was not uncommon to still run large measurement characterizations manually by a human moving stages, pressing buttons, turning knobs, etc.
When the human did it, if something went wrong with the measurement, he saw it, and didn't count that one. Remember, these things were in their infancy at the time, so we were asking two questions: How good were the real measurements, and how and what were the nature of the bad measurements?
Ok, now fast forward about 1 year, to a similar test run on our equipment by the Japanese, using the first fully automated testing, with no human intervention. Same algorithms, just all automated. When the test of say 1000 measurements were done, we went in and looked at the statistics, and concluded which were the bad measurement outliers (outside 3 sigma), and gave the Japanese the results.
They said, no, there not interested in the good measurements, they wanted <b>all </b>of them, including the bad, to be included in the "values" of what we were measuring. We admitted that <b>full automode</b>, still had some problems, but we were able to explain the exact nature of the problems, and show them how they could tell a good measurement from a bad one, and give them statistics and values that were 99+% correct if compared with SEM measurements.
We asked them what was their goal, to get the real measurements, or to wait until our tool no longer made any bad measurements, and we might as well had been talking Greek to them.
In my opinion, that is an example of where "controls" gets in the way of "common sense". I guess I still believe there's a little "art" in everything.
rd
<br />Life is about forming hypotheses. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I can't argue with anything you just said. Except maybe to point out that I've already seen many instances of image "blanking" that is obviously <b>not </b>hiding something, so it's very difficult to imagine what rule we would use in the hypothesis. Some selective blanking could easily be lost in the noise of real blanking.
As far as the image request part of it goes, let's just say I think we already discussed how seriously JPL takes the issue of high resolution public research requests. Didn't you say something about how they'd rather spend the time letting Kindergartners run the controls?
Regarding testing controls, I agree in principle, but I also believe there are cases where an intelligent human can look at the results at the end of the test and "interpret" them, above and beyond the obvious "black box" point of view.
Let me give you a simple example. In the early years of automation, when Autofocus, AutoMeasure, Pattern Recognition and Recipes where first being developed, it was not uncommon to still run large measurement characterizations manually by a human moving stages, pressing buttons, turning knobs, etc.
When the human did it, if something went wrong with the measurement, he saw it, and didn't count that one. Remember, these things were in their infancy at the time, so we were asking two questions: How good were the real measurements, and how and what were the nature of the bad measurements?
Ok, now fast forward about 1 year, to a similar test run on our equipment by the Japanese, using the first fully automated testing, with no human intervention. Same algorithms, just all automated. When the test of say 1000 measurements were done, we went in and looked at the statistics, and concluded which were the bad measurement outliers (outside 3 sigma), and gave the Japanese the results.
They said, no, there not interested in the good measurements, they wanted <b>all </b>of them, including the bad, to be included in the "values" of what we were measuring. We admitted that <b>full automode</b>, still had some problems, but we were able to explain the exact nature of the problems, and show them how they could tell a good measurement from a bad one, and give them statistics and values that were 99+% correct if compared with SEM measurements.
We asked them what was their goal, to get the real measurements, or to wait until our tool no longer made any bad measurements, and we might as well had been talking Greek to them.
In my opinion, that is an example of where "controls" gets in the way of "common sense". I guess I still believe there's a little "art" in everything.
rd
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18 years 4 months ago #15912
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by neilderosa</i>
<br />A wise old woman once told me, (you know who Rich), Man's ability to rationalize is almost infinate.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Is she the same wise old woman who said, "when you get to the heart of a great conspiracy, you don't find great men, what you find is scurrying cochroaches"?
rd
<br />A wise old woman once told me, (you know who Rich), Man's ability to rationalize is almost infinate.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Is she the same wise old woman who said, "when you get to the heart of a great conspiracy, you don't find great men, what you find is scurrying cochroaches"?
rd
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18 years 4 months ago #8894
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is she the same wise old woman who said, "when you get to the heart of a great conspiracy, you don't find great men, what you find is scurrying cochroaches"? [RD]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
She is.
Anyway, Thanks for your imput Tom, and everybody. I'm still optimistic though. There are a lot of good images out there, and a valid hypothesis is inevetably forming, despite the "cookarachas."
Neil
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
She is.
Anyway, Thanks for your imput Tom, and everybody. I'm still optimistic though. There are a lot of good images out there, and a valid hypothesis is inevetably forming, despite the "cookarachas."
Neil
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