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Elaborate Pareidolia and other Mysteries
- pareidoliac
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17 years 8 months ago #16676
by pareidoliac
Replied by pareidoliac on topic Reply from fred ressler
Neil- Since "detailed pareidolia," seems to be such an important aspect of this topic, i must take issue with your statement that the "Premonition" poster is more detailed than "Einstein" with 36 listed features as inumerated and classified in previous posts. i count 17 features maximum in the "Premonition" poster. Perhaps you could list the features that i don't see. It is interesting that this example of art has roughly half the features seen in the most detailed natural pareidolic image.
Tom- Also glad to hear you'tre feeling better. Please pardon me for "going off track"- as usual- it's just that being more of an intuitive/mystic than a pure scientist, i don't separate things into categories as readily as most scientists do.
Tom- Also glad to hear you'tre feeling better. Please pardon me for "going off track"- as usual- it's just that being more of an intuitive/mystic than a pure scientist, i don't separate things into categories as readily as most scientists do.
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17 years 8 months ago #16677
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">i must take issue with your statement that the "Premonition" poster is more detailed than "Einstein" with 36 listed features as inumerated and classified [Fred}<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
It is not just quantitative “detail” I’m concerned with. My position is closely associated with the “correspondence theory of truth” or knowledge advocated by several philosophers. It therefore concerns not only detail, but any number of the quantities and qualities (such as proportion, symmetry, orientation, relevance to deductive models, context, realism, shading, technique, and so on; all of which have been discussed previously) that can correlate and relate the images under discussion to their referents in reality (i.e., in our experience). I am also very concerned with authenticating the images we are considering. I am not contesting the detail count in your various art objects, and have already given my assessment concerning their artificiality vs. natural occurrence, and do not wish to repeat that aspect of the discussion.
Neil
It is not just quantitative “detail” I’m concerned with. My position is closely associated with the “correspondence theory of truth” or knowledge advocated by several philosophers. It therefore concerns not only detail, but any number of the quantities and qualities (such as proportion, symmetry, orientation, relevance to deductive models, context, realism, shading, technique, and so on; all of which have been discussed previously) that can correlate and relate the images under discussion to their referents in reality (i.e., in our experience). I am also very concerned with authenticating the images we are considering. I am not contesting the detail count in your various art objects, and have already given my assessment concerning their artificiality vs. natural occurrence, and do not wish to repeat that aspect of the discussion.
Neil
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17 years 8 months ago #16681
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is not just quantitative “detail” I’m concerned with. My position is closely associated with the “correspondence theory of truth” or knowledge advocated by several philosophers. It therefore concerns not only detail, but any number of the quantities and qualities (such as proportion, symmetry, orientation, relevance to deductive models, context, realism, shading, technique, and so on; all of which have been discussed previously) that can correlate and relate the images under discussion to their referents in reality (i.e., in our experience). I am also very concerned with authenticating the images we are considering. I am not contesting the detail count in your various art objects, and have already given my assessment concerning their artificiality vs. natural occurrence, and do not wish to repeat that aspect of the discussion. [Neil]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
For example, in a MRB paper, Levasseur examined many of the quantities and qualities of the Profile Image, and made a comparison to known examples of pareidolia. In my MRB paper “Innana Ishatar,” (Nefertiti) I continued the analysis of the PI’s art-realism and made some speculative cultural comparisons.
But we always used unenhanced images, except for the Keys, which were so indicated. There has been some discussion on this MB as to which enhancements are legitimate, and I’ve come to the conclusion that for the most part only contrast and brightness are legitimate & the only ones that don’t add significant data; although I’m not an expert in that area.
When he was still in our camp Rich and I did a paper on the “Nefertiti” Family, which he withdrew when he changed sides. It essentially did more analysis of the qualities listed above and showed the context to other faces in the mosaic. It also stressed the importance of corroboration from other NASA images, because this weighs against the possibility of computer fakes for a number of reasons, and showed that the faces persist in other lighting conditions, etc.
This kind of analysis can be done for many of the art objects and artifacts discovered by myself and others. My inclination is to stick to the ones that can best be defended on the basis of their realistic correspondence to known objects of our experience. We are entitled to take that track because the Cydonia Face, the object that demonstrates artificiality most conclusively, is decidedly human-like, and the Profile Image is even more so. This allows us to logically create models whereby more human-like faces and other artifacts of intelligent engineering may be found.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
For example, in a MRB paper, Levasseur examined many of the quantities and qualities of the Profile Image, and made a comparison to known examples of pareidolia. In my MRB paper “Innana Ishatar,” (Nefertiti) I continued the analysis of the PI’s art-realism and made some speculative cultural comparisons.
But we always used unenhanced images, except for the Keys, which were so indicated. There has been some discussion on this MB as to which enhancements are legitimate, and I’ve come to the conclusion that for the most part only contrast and brightness are legitimate & the only ones that don’t add significant data; although I’m not an expert in that area.
When he was still in our camp Rich and I did a paper on the “Nefertiti” Family, which he withdrew when he changed sides. It essentially did more analysis of the qualities listed above and showed the context to other faces in the mosaic. It also stressed the importance of corroboration from other NASA images, because this weighs against the possibility of computer fakes for a number of reasons, and showed that the faces persist in other lighting conditions, etc.
This kind of analysis can be done for many of the art objects and artifacts discovered by myself and others. My inclination is to stick to the ones that can best be defended on the basis of their realistic correspondence to known objects of our experience. We are entitled to take that track because the Cydonia Face, the object that demonstrates artificiality most conclusively, is decidedly human-like, and the Profile Image is even more so. This allows us to logically create models whereby more human-like faces and other artifacts of intelligent engineering may be found.
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17 years 7 months ago #16782
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
Here's one more way of looking at the situation with which we are faced. In the case of the Premonition poster, a pareidolic face (with branches, leaves, birds and sky coming together at random to “just happen” to look like Sandra Bullock’s face) is very easy to see through as being not “really pareidolia.” So we have to ask ourselves: why? As Fred points out just “detail” is not enough, though it’s a start. Almost anybody can immediately (intuitively) see this is not pareidolia; we have to ask ourselves: why?
Put simply, we have here: 1) a movie poster (almost everybody knows that); 2) staring a popular actress, (that almost everybody knows of); 3) a pareidolia face (everybody doesn’t know the term, but everybody knows the concept) that happens to “look like” the star of the movie; 4) the artwork is a sophisticated combination of detail, orientation, proportion, context, shading, realism, and correspondence to something familiar and to the subject of the movie (leaving almost no doubt that it’s artwork); 5) we have no reason to think this is anything other than what it appears to be (for instance, we might assume that the artist hired a thousand assistants and sent them out to photograph nature for ten years until by some [imagined] law of averages she found a “real” pareidolic face that looked exactly like this), but that’s highly unlikely for a number of reasons.
Any of these items taken by themselves, or any single component of any item taken by itself, (such as detail), would not be enough to tell us what we really have here. But integrate them, (put them all together), or most of them, (as every intelligent person does intuitively and automatically), and we all know exactly what this has to be.
But remove just a few of these items, or leave them all intact and place the (provable) image source on Mars, and a whole different “paradigm” emerges. We start questioning the image’s authenticity, we question our senses, we invent new sciences, or we imagine new explanations. This is what paradigm shifts and gestalt experiences are about.
Put simply, we have here: 1) a movie poster (almost everybody knows that); 2) staring a popular actress, (that almost everybody knows of); 3) a pareidolia face (everybody doesn’t know the term, but everybody knows the concept) that happens to “look like” the star of the movie; 4) the artwork is a sophisticated combination of detail, orientation, proportion, context, shading, realism, and correspondence to something familiar and to the subject of the movie (leaving almost no doubt that it’s artwork); 5) we have no reason to think this is anything other than what it appears to be (for instance, we might assume that the artist hired a thousand assistants and sent them out to photograph nature for ten years until by some [imagined] law of averages she found a “real” pareidolic face that looked exactly like this), but that’s highly unlikely for a number of reasons.
Any of these items taken by themselves, or any single component of any item taken by itself, (such as detail), would not be enough to tell us what we really have here. But integrate them, (put them all together), or most of them, (as every intelligent person does intuitively and automatically), and we all know exactly what this has to be.
But remove just a few of these items, or leave them all intact and place the (provable) image source on Mars, and a whole different “paradigm” emerges. We start questioning the image’s authenticity, we question our senses, we invent new sciences, or we imagine new explanations. This is what paradigm shifts and gestalt experiences are about.
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17 years 7 months ago #19554
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
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17 years 7 months ago #16643
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">From the beginning of the scientific enterprise, a textbook presentation implies scientists have striven for the particular objectives that are embodied in today’s paradigms. One by one, in a process often compared to the addition of bricks to a building, scientists have added another fact, concept, law, or theory to the body of information supplied in the contemporary science text…But this is not the way science develops. Many of the puzzles of contemporary normal science did not exist until after the most recent scientific revolution. (140) Thomas Kuhn, <i>The Structure of Scientific Revolutions</i><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is true that among the heretics there is a sizable percentage of cranks and simpletons; but there are others. There are those who lack mathematical training and simply feel that (certain theories) do not square with common sense. And there are also, to this day, some rebels of academic standing whose grumblings can occasionally be heard in public. (20) Peter Beckmann, <i>Einstein Plus Two</i> (parenthesis added)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is true that among the heretics there is a sizable percentage of cranks and simpletons; but there are others. There are those who lack mathematical training and simply feel that (certain theories) do not square with common sense. And there are also, to this day, some rebels of academic standing whose grumblings can occasionally be heard in public. (20) Peter Beckmann, <i>Einstein Plus Two</i> (parenthesis added)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
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