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18 years 4 months ago #15985 by tvanflandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by neilderosa</i>
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The JPL censors must have missed this 2001 image because what's right next to it is blocked out.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The "missing data" portions of a few images are cases where the transmission was interrupted or the transmitted signal was corrupted -- things that are occasionally inevitable when trying to transmit 150,000 hi-res images over 100 million miles in an 8-year span.

It is probably a selection effect that you find these in places you would like to see because you aren't noticing the harmless ones in images you have no interest in viewing. If there were illegal "sensors" violating the JPL-NASA contract, there are hundreds of more significant targets they would have chosen. -|Tom|-

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18 years 4 months ago #16014 by tvanflandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
<br />???<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I'm not sure what the question marks mean. In EPH, the highlands were formed 65 Mya, and the partially overlapping water dump happened 3.2 Mya. Flow from the highlands to the lowlands is natural enough. The only real question is where the water came from. And EPH is one of the few plausibly explanations for it originating in the highlands, including some high craters (not near Gusev) that show only outflow channels. -|Tom|-

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18 years 4 months ago #16289 by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br />The "missing data" portions of a few images are cases where the transmission was interrupted or the transmitted signal was corrupted -- things that are occasionally inevitable when trying to transmit 150,000 hi-res images over 100 million miles in an 8-year span.

It is probably a selection effect that you find these in places you would like to see because you aren't noticing the harmless ones in images you have no interest in viewing. If there were illegal "sensors" violating the JPL-NASA contract, there are hundreds of more significant targets they would have chosen.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Tom, you could be right, and I have seen this "blanking out" thing in other places, but there's that old issue of "coincidence" that we have trouble with.

You have to appreciate how much time I spent looking at all of the images in the West Candor Chasma. This was my line of thinking:

1. Speculation was that Skullface "fell" into the chasm. Meaning, it had possibly once sat at the top of the ledge.

2. So, I thought maybe if one looked due East or due West at the latitude of what should have been close to the top of the cliff, maybe we can find something else. My thinking was that perhaps these artworks were "looking" out over the chasma.

3. After looking at about 100 swaths, I finally found one in the right place.

4. And it's "blanked" out right in the spot I wanted to look at.

I was so ****ed off, I missed the Ugly Lady.

Random chance? Maybe, but it's awfully "conveeenient."

rd

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18 years 4 months ago #8889 by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If there were illegal "sensors" violating the JPL-NASA contract, there are hundreds of more significant targets they would have chosen. -|Tom|-<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I'm a pragmatist and I accept such evidence as I can find and consider myself lucky. But I also think it quite reasonable to expect people in whatever profession, when there are economic motivations involved, to cheat in small ways and large if they think they can get away with it. Do I think there is an organized, overt conspiracy to hide the truth from the public. No I don't. This is still a free country and we live by rule of law. But there have always been subtle ways of getting things done, ways of getting around the rules. (The convenient arrangement betwen NASA and JPL is a case in point with almost no recourse or checks and balances vis-a-vis the public.) It's as old as human nature, which is as we are seeing here, very old indeed. If I could pick up the phone like I do in business every day, I'd call someone at NASA/JPL tomorrow and say, "Give me a good image on the next go-round of the MGS/MOC. Important targets? There isn't anything more important than this, when you get right down to it. If true, this is the most important thing on the table. So let's see the pictures please." ...

However, I'll accept the official position that everything is on the up and up, and will not belabor the point. Still I think it behooves us to keep the pressure on to keep them honest. A lot of information is in the offing in the near future. We wouldn't want to miss it.

Neil

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18 years 4 months ago #8890 by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by neilderosa</i>
<br /> That looks an awfull like her kid she's holding up for us to see ,under that blocked out section. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Neil, you're right, there is faint glimmer of child under the boxes.

You know, something else occured to me. Let's call it the "give them the benefit of the doubt" angle.

Suppose, just for argument sake, two things.

One, NASA/JPL editors really, sincerely, in their heart of hearts, do not believe in the artificiality theory. In other words, the "know" there's no such thing as life on Mars, not now, not ever, and therefore there are no artworks, period.

Two, suppose as they are looking through images, they see something that "really" looks like a baby, even to them.

What would they do? If they leave it, they conclude, it's grist for our mill, so they blank it out, as a favor to humanity. Save the little folk from hurting themselves.

Very possible.

rd

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18 years 4 months ago #8891 by tvanflandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rderosa</i>
<br />Random chance? Maybe, but it's awfully "conveeenient."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Life is about forming hypotheses. But major coincidences can and do happen all the time. There is a simple prescription we use in science to prevent the premature acceptance of all kinds of hypotheses that will turn out to be based on coincidences: controlled testing.

In its simplest form, the "a priori" hypothesis says that, when you spot something that appears to be beyond chance, the first instance is <i>never</i> significant, but can only be used to formulate a hypothesis. I don't know what it would be in this case because so many good anomalies have not been censored, but sometimes merely the act of trying to formulate the hypothesis points up that the attention-drawing thing makes no sense as anything but a coincidence.

But assuming you can formulate a coherent hypothesis, you then design a test for it. This usually involves looking for other instances.

Then comes the part that even educated scientists often forget. If you just scan hundreds of images, your mind tends to easily remember the clues that fit your hypothesis and not to notice, or readily forget, clues that tend to falsify it. So you need controls in place before any search begins, with clear-cut criteria for what constitutes a "hit" and what is a "miss". And of course, you can't change criteria or hit-miss determinations after you know what effect they will have on the outcome. That would be allowing your biases to pre-determine the test result. It should be a <i>fair</i> test that allows both outcomes, not just the favored outcome.

If you begin the search and find you want to modify the hypothesis, that is only okay if you remember another form of bias that leads to false positives: You must throw out <b>all</b> the data up to the point where the hypothesis is finalized, and start the search from scratch using only fresh data not part of the hypothesis-forming work. You can't use the cases that convinced you to change the hypothesis as part of the evidence favoring the hypothesis in a test. The test comes after the hypothesis is final and the controls are in place.

If you do a controlled test of a coherent hypothesis, perhaps you could make a convincing case that data manipulation has occurred, starting with convincing the skeptic that should be alive and well within yourself. (Mine is saying right now: "Too much money is at stake if censors are caught, catching them is too easy with images from other nations' space programs, and bias is a sufficient explanation for JPL ignoring all the anomalies we think significant.")

Instead of allowing yourself to indulge in unproductive and side-tracking hypotheses and having to reality-test them (or worse, not reality-testing them), why not take a more pro-active approach, such as JP Levasseur has? Join the "request an image" program and ask JPL to take another image of any area you want one so you can find out what was in the missing data. If you don't trust JPL, ask ESA to take an image with Mars Express. (But you may have to wait a while because it is still working on its active mapping program.)

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