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Requiem for Relativity
14 years 4 months ago #23987
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
Hi Dr Joe, Why not get better pictures of the map? Why use a pic in US News as a source when the real data still is at the site?
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14 years 4 months ago #23956
by Joe Keller
Replied by Joe Keller on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
<br />Hi Dr Joe, Why not get better pictures of the map? Why use a pic in US News as a source when the real data still is at the site?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi Jim,
I agree, it is essential. A problem with pictures on the web, is that browsers might introduce additional distortions. If I use a magazine photo, at least others can be sure they're looking at exactly the same photo. Do you know of a source for hardcopy pictures?
- Joe Keller
<br />Hi Dr Joe, Why not get better pictures of the map? Why use a pic in US News as a source when the real data still is at the site?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi Jim,
I agree, it is essential. A problem with pictures on the web, is that browsers might introduce additional distortions. If I use a magazine photo, at least others can be sure they're looking at exactly the same photo. Do you know of a source for hardcopy pictures?
- Joe Keller
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14 years 4 months ago #23957
by Joe Keller
Replied by Joe Keller on topic Reply from
Further results regarding the Gobekli Tepe star map
With correction for stellar proper motion (Hipparcos catalog) to the presumed date of 2012.97 AD - 2*6339.36 (Julian yr) + 143.91 = 2000.0 AD - 12551.84, and correction of the ecliptic to that date (1990 Astronomical Almanac formula), and adequate approximations giving the local angle between the ecliptic latitude lines and the declination lines, I find that the line from Gamma Corvi to Gamma Crateris should be sloped downward 32 deg, if the horizontal at the Gobekli Tepe Vulture Stone, is the ecliptic latitude line of date. (Ptolemy and other ancient astronomers usually used ecliptic rather than celestial coordinates; ecliptic coords. would be preferred by monument-making astronomers with knowledge of precession.) When I correct the US News&WR photo (see previous post) for an apparent 22 degree rotation of the right side forward (assuming an ordinary 35mm camera with a 50mm focal length and 37mm frame height) I find that about 5% must be added to horizontal dimensions. With this correction, the actual line on the Vulture Stone, from Gamma Corvi to Gamma Crateris, slopes downward 29deg (vs. 32deg predicted).
With the above methods, the line from Gamma Corvi to Theta Crateris, should theoretically slope upward 9deg; on the Vulture Stone, it actually slopes upward about 16deg. The ratios of the lengths,
GammaCorvi GammaCrateris::
GammaCorvi ThetaCrateris::
GammaCrateris ThetaCrateris
theoretically are 1::1.019::0.675, and on the Vulture Stone (with the above correction for perspective) are 1::1.14::0.83. The unusual placement of the "eye" of the upper righthand vulture (Theta Crateris) suggests uncertainty about the position of that star. Theta Crateris lies across the path of Barbarossa; it already has unusually strong "interstellar" absorption lines, and Barbarossa's dimming of USNO-B catalog stars mainly occurs retrograde to Barbarossa's position. So, Theta Crateris might have been much dimmed, and confused with other stars.
My best estimate of Barbarossa's heliocentric position (really, barycentric including only the other planets with the Sun, which here is practically the same thing as heliocentric) 143.91 yr past Dec. 21, 2012 AD (which also should correspond to Barbarossa's position on the Vulture Stone, if I guessed correctly about the date, and if there is no precession or other disturbance of Barbarossa's orbit) is, in J2000.0 celestial coords, RA 184.396 Decl -15.794, distance 254.8 AU. Including the correction for Earth parallax at this presumed date of the Vulture Stone, Barbarossa should theoretically have been seen 1.973deg away from Gamma Corvi, at "ecliptic position angle" (i.e., azimuth counting clockwise from ecliptic north) 90 - 50.12 = 39.88deg. As I measure on the photo, Barbarossa actually is, with perspective correction, 0.67deg away, at ecliptic position angle 65deg. The circle around Barbarossa, on the Vulture Stone, suggests a nebula.
With correction for stellar proper motion (Hipparcos catalog) to the presumed date of 2012.97 AD - 2*6339.36 (Julian yr) + 143.91 = 2000.0 AD - 12551.84, and correction of the ecliptic to that date (1990 Astronomical Almanac formula), and adequate approximations giving the local angle between the ecliptic latitude lines and the declination lines, I find that the line from Gamma Corvi to Gamma Crateris should be sloped downward 32 deg, if the horizontal at the Gobekli Tepe Vulture Stone, is the ecliptic latitude line of date. (Ptolemy and other ancient astronomers usually used ecliptic rather than celestial coordinates; ecliptic coords. would be preferred by monument-making astronomers with knowledge of precession.) When I correct the US News&WR photo (see previous post) for an apparent 22 degree rotation of the right side forward (assuming an ordinary 35mm camera with a 50mm focal length and 37mm frame height) I find that about 5% must be added to horizontal dimensions. With this correction, the actual line on the Vulture Stone, from Gamma Corvi to Gamma Crateris, slopes downward 29deg (vs. 32deg predicted).
With the above methods, the line from Gamma Corvi to Theta Crateris, should theoretically slope upward 9deg; on the Vulture Stone, it actually slopes upward about 16deg. The ratios of the lengths,
GammaCorvi GammaCrateris::
GammaCorvi ThetaCrateris::
GammaCrateris ThetaCrateris
theoretically are 1::1.019::0.675, and on the Vulture Stone (with the above correction for perspective) are 1::1.14::0.83. The unusual placement of the "eye" of the upper righthand vulture (Theta Crateris) suggests uncertainty about the position of that star. Theta Crateris lies across the path of Barbarossa; it already has unusually strong "interstellar" absorption lines, and Barbarossa's dimming of USNO-B catalog stars mainly occurs retrograde to Barbarossa's position. So, Theta Crateris might have been much dimmed, and confused with other stars.
My best estimate of Barbarossa's heliocentric position (really, barycentric including only the other planets with the Sun, which here is practically the same thing as heliocentric) 143.91 yr past Dec. 21, 2012 AD (which also should correspond to Barbarossa's position on the Vulture Stone, if I guessed correctly about the date, and if there is no precession or other disturbance of Barbarossa's orbit) is, in J2000.0 celestial coords, RA 184.396 Decl -15.794, distance 254.8 AU. Including the correction for Earth parallax at this presumed date of the Vulture Stone, Barbarossa should theoretically have been seen 1.973deg away from Gamma Corvi, at "ecliptic position angle" (i.e., azimuth counting clockwise from ecliptic north) 90 - 50.12 = 39.88deg. As I measure on the photo, Barbarossa actually is, with perspective correction, 0.67deg away, at ecliptic position angle 65deg. The circle around Barbarossa, on the Vulture Stone, suggests a nebula.
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14 years 4 months ago #23958
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
Dr Joe, The site is well stocked with science guys according to the Wiki. They must have a web site but it might be only in German because the dig is funded by a German university.
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14 years 4 months ago #23959
by Joe Keller
Replied by Joe Keller on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
<br />Dr Joe, The site is well stocked with science guys according to the Wiki. They must have a web site but it might be only in German because the dig is funded by a German university.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi Jim,
Two days ago I nonconfrontationally emailed four German Ph.D.'s associated with the Gobekli Tepe archaeological site. None of the emails bounced, but there has been no response. It's too easy for them to tell themselves, perhaps unconsciously, "Just a lone nut; I can get away with putting my guild's turf issues, before the taxpaying public's right to know."
My experience is, that professional academics never respond to anyone "not in the guild" regarding anything that involves two-way collaboration. One department chairman in astronomy, at a publicly funded U. S. university, even told me in an email, that he makes it a policy never to discuss research with anyone who isn't in the astronomy guild, i.e., a Ph.D., a doctoral student, etc.
Your taxes pay for it, but science is a "closed shop", and the "Freedom of Information Act" is a "dead letter". It seems that this is going to have tragic consequences for mankind.
Maybe you or someone else who reads this, could quietly email a few of them yourselves, and ask them to send me (or you) an accurate picture of the Gobekli Tepe "Vulture Stone" suitable for scientific study? If more than one person specifically expresses interest, then they can't say it's just a "lone nut".
- Joe Keller
<br />Dr Joe, The site is well stocked with science guys according to the Wiki. They must have a web site but it might be only in German because the dig is funded by a German university.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi Jim,
Two days ago I nonconfrontationally emailed four German Ph.D.'s associated with the Gobekli Tepe archaeological site. None of the emails bounced, but there has been no response. It's too easy for them to tell themselves, perhaps unconsciously, "Just a lone nut; I can get away with putting my guild's turf issues, before the taxpaying public's right to know."
My experience is, that professional academics never respond to anyone "not in the guild" regarding anything that involves two-way collaboration. One department chairman in astronomy, at a publicly funded U. S. university, even told me in an email, that he makes it a policy never to discuss research with anyone who isn't in the astronomy guild, i.e., a Ph.D., a doctoral student, etc.
Your taxes pay for it, but science is a "closed shop", and the "Freedom of Information Act" is a "dead letter". It seems that this is going to have tragic consequences for mankind.
Maybe you or someone else who reads this, could quietly email a few of them yourselves, and ask them to send me (or you) an accurate picture of the Gobekli Tepe "Vulture Stone" suitable for scientific study? If more than one person specifically expresses interest, then they can't say it's just a "lone nut".
- Joe Keller
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14 years 4 months ago #23965
by Stoat
Replied by Stoat on topic Reply from Robert Turner
Hi Joe, have you read this paper yet? I haven't but that stuff from my last post suggests that the angular velocity of the universe is about a third of the speed of light at 1.4E 26 metres. To get it to spin slower means an even larger big bang universe with G becoming vanishingly small.
iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/703/1/354
"Models of a rotating universe have been studied widely since the work of Gdel, who showed an example that is consistent with general relativity. By now, the possibility of a rotating universe has been discussed comprehensively in the framework of some types of Bianchi's models, such as Type V, VII, and IX and different approaches have been proposed to constrain the rotation. Recent discoveries of some non-Gaussian properties of the Cosmic Microwave Background Anisotropies (CMBA), such as the suppression of the quadrupole and the alignment of some multipoles draw attention to some Bianchi models with rotation. However, cosmological data, such as those of the CMBA, strongly prefer a homogeneous and isotropic model. Therefore, it is of interest to discuss the rotation of the universe as a perturbation of the Robertson-Walker metric, to constrain the rotating speed by cosmological data and to discuss whether it could be the origin of the non-Gaussian properties of the CMBA mentioned above. Here, we derive the general form of the metric (up to second-order perturbations) which is compatible with the rotation perturbation in a flat #923;-CDM universe. By comparing the second-order Sachs-Wolfe effect due to rotation with the CMBA data, we constrain the angular speed of the rotation to be less than 109 rad yr1 at the last scattering surface. This provides the first constraint on the shear-free rotation of a #923;CDM universe."
iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/703/1/354
"Models of a rotating universe have been studied widely since the work of Gdel, who showed an example that is consistent with general relativity. By now, the possibility of a rotating universe has been discussed comprehensively in the framework of some types of Bianchi's models, such as Type V, VII, and IX and different approaches have been proposed to constrain the rotation. Recent discoveries of some non-Gaussian properties of the Cosmic Microwave Background Anisotropies (CMBA), such as the suppression of the quadrupole and the alignment of some multipoles draw attention to some Bianchi models with rotation. However, cosmological data, such as those of the CMBA, strongly prefer a homogeneous and isotropic model. Therefore, it is of interest to discuss the rotation of the universe as a perturbation of the Robertson-Walker metric, to constrain the rotating speed by cosmological data and to discuss whether it could be the origin of the non-Gaussian properties of the CMBA mentioned above. Here, we derive the general form of the metric (up to second-order perturbations) which is compatible with the rotation perturbation in a flat #923;-CDM universe. By comparing the second-order Sachs-Wolfe effect due to rotation with the CMBA data, we constrain the angular speed of the rotation to be less than 109 rad yr1 at the last scattering surface. This provides the first constraint on the shear-free rotation of a #923;CDM universe."
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