Might all forces propagate at speed of gravity?

Here is my response to Aaron's 20 Jun 2009: 05:48:16 post, above, which I originally posted on the other thread on 17 Jun 2009: 04:01:48.

Aaron: Posted-17 Jun 2009: 02:41:01
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In your Gravity/Sheer waves model, do you identify any sort of source for the creation of your two different kind of waves?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes. The expansion of our space stretches the bubble walls (walls of galaxies) in our cosmic foam. Ultimately, one by one, the bubble walls pop. A gap opens near the middle of the wall, and the galaxies accelerate toward the surrounding walls, eventually crashing into them. To conserve energy and momentum, pressure waves propagate outward thru our cosmic foam, which is the ether foam of a super-universe. The same happens in the cosmic foam of the sub-universe, which is the ether foam of our universe. So that is the source of the pressure waves in our ether.

When a cosmic-foam bubble wall pops, two bubbles become one, which represents a decrease in the number of cosmic-foam bubbles in the region. (The total number of bubbles in the cosmos is infinite, so it can't increase). If space can be measured in bubbles, a decrease in bubbles represents shrinking space. To me, this strongly suggests that the arrow of time reverses from each universe to those above and below it in the dimension of scale. So from our perspective, the pressure waves in our ether converge toward their future cause. When they get to their cause, an ether-foam bubble wall unpops, and one bubble becomes two; so on average, a cubic Planck length (10^-105 cubic meter) of new space is added to our universe---approximately <s>10^52</s> 10^88 times per second per cubic meter. Since the pressure waves are converted to space, they fill the role of dark energy. [Error discovered on 7.30/09. Explained in thread "[url=" www.metaresearch.org/msgboard/topic.asp?...02&SearchTerms=10^52 "]Might all forces propagate at speed of gravity?[/url]" ]

The ultimate source of shear waves is a bit more puzzling and uncertain. I have one candidate source, as follows: Assuming that the bubble sizes in the ether foam are randomly distributed, there must be randomly occurring micro regions (call them blobs) in which the mean bubble size is significantly greater than the overall mean. If the distribution of bubble sizes is nonlinear, such blobs may be more common. A pressure wave passing thru such a blob should change speed going in and resume speed coming out. If the pressure wave slows going in, that imparts forward momentum to the blob; when the pressure wave leaves, it gets back its momentum but leaves the blob ever so slightly out of its equilibrium position. Shear forces return the blob to equilibrium, radiating shear waves perpendicular to the path of pressure wave.

The main weakness in the above mechanism for forming shear waves is that pressure waves should be striking the blob from all sides so frequently that the blob doesn't remain out of equilibrium in any one direction long enough to generate shear waves.


Aaron: Posted-17 Jun 2009: 02:41:01
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And do you think that there is any geometric dispersion associated with their propagation? Such as getting weaker or less energetic per area as they move out from their source as all other waves appear to do? Are tsunamis an exception, gaining power as they progress?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

My suspicion is that both shear and pressure waves at the smallest scale spread in the manner of macroscopic acoustic waves. In fractal universes with both macro and quantum scales, there must be two transitions between those scales per universe. There must be a scale smaller than the quantum scale in which waves behave like macro waves.

Perhaps wave-particle duality is best explained by some sort of multiverse theory. Pressure waves are the ultimate source of energy in our universe, and they are caused by cosmic-foam bubble popping events which lie in our future and the sub-universe past. So each of our possible futures must have already taken place from a sub-universe persepctive. This leaves only two possibilities; either our future is predestined, or all possible futures exist---and continue to exist even if we don't go there.

So the probability waves of the Schrodinger equation represent the probability that we shall experience a particular convergence of dispersed actual waves. Sorry if that is unclear; I haven't had much opportunity (none, actually) to debate these views.

Aaron, since you do seem to be interested in my model, I recommend that you Google "Fractal Foam Model of Universes". You can research the earliest beginnings of my model by reading my posts on this forum several years back. It didn't really start to take shape until February, 2007; after that most of it came together in a few months.

Fractal Foam Model of Universes: Creator

<b>[Aaron]" ... minimum velocity for the--what should we call it--transmission speed of Gravity."</b>

Propagation speed is the term you are looking for.

And just to be explicit, this is the propagatioin speed of gravitational force, not the propagation speed of gravitational waves.

In Deep Reality Physics (and in physical reality?) gravitational force and gravitational radiation are two independent phenomena. The former is easily observed and we measure it frequently. We are also able to observe and measure changes in gravitational force. These changes are not related to gravitational radiation.

Gravitational waves have never been observed or measured, but are a theoretical possiblity in DRP as well as in other theories, most notably General Relativity. Their predicted physical characteristics (essentially the same in both theories) are completly different from the observed physical characteristics of gravitational force and changes in gravitational force.

LB

Larry: Posted - 20 Jun 2009 : 09:26:29
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Gravitational waves have never been observed or measured, but are a theoretical possiblity in DRP as well as in other theories, most notably General Relativity. Their predicted physical characteristics (essentially the same in both theories) are completly different from the observed physical characteristics of gravitational force and changes in gravitational force.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Speaking for my own Fractal Foam model: I can neither confirm nor deny the existence or speed of the gravitational waves predicted by Einstein. My limited understanding is that gravitational waves are undisputably predicted by the math of general relativity (GR). I am no mathematician, and I'm afraid that math is beyond me. I believe the math of GR would be fully applicable to my model if not for its underlying false assumption that gravity is instantaneous at all distances. I leave it to mathematicians to modify GR by inserting a speed-of-gravity term into its equations.

I believe VanFlandern would have liked to see GR modified with the addition of a term for the range of gravity, as well. He believed that collisions among gravitons with one another would reduce the effect of gravity at radius r by a factor of 2^(-r/rg), with rg having a value greater than 10 kiloparsec (about 1/10th the diameter of our galaxy). My own model does not seem to suggest any such limited range of gravity; I believe pressure waves pass thru one another with no effect. (Likewise, shear waves do not affect one another directly, but momentum is transferred when a pressure wave passes thru a shear wave.)

In my limited understanding of the Fatio/Lesage model, gravity force propagates by means of a perfect gas of elastic particles (gravitons). Lesage gravitons are presumed to have a mean speed and a mean momentum, both of which are related to a random distribution such as one would expect from a perfect gas. That is fundamentally different from my model, in which gravity force propagates by means of pressure waves in a solid elastic ether, and all such pressure waves propagate at the same uniform speed.

Getting back to the original topic of discussion: If gravity waves. resulting from the acceleration of a mass, propagate at the speed of light, and e/m waves, resulting from the acceleration of a charge, also propagate at the speed of light, then perhaps both gravity force and electrostatic force propagate at the same much greater speed. And if both forces and their respective waves propagate at the same speed, they must have a commoon cause. In my model both are transmitted via pressure waves. I cannot speak for DRP, but Larry, wouldn't you expect e/m force to propagate via gravitions at the speed of gravity?

I believe the same is true of the strong and weak nuclear forces, as well. For all we know, there may be additional forces acting within quarks; if so, I also attribute them to the interaction between ethereal pressure waves and ethereal shear waves.

Fractal Foam Model of Universes: Creator

Phil,

Your model depends on several types of waves, and I have a question about them. Waves need a medium in which to wave. I have been expecting you to get around to this aspect of your model some day, but it has been a while and you have not, so I suppose it is time to ask.

Note that this (the need for a medium to support the waves in your model) is a requirement of physics, <u>not of math</u>. Math is really cool, and strange, in this way. It is brilliant at describing and predicting the behavior of physical things. It is equally brilliant at describing and predicting things that cannot exist physically.

Mathematicians live in a world with few constraints - physicists do not have that luxury.

===

My question: What is the nature of the particle or particles that comprise the medium or media in which your waves propagate? I am more interested in your thinking about the physical properites of said media and particles than in the mathematical descriptions of them. But if you model has advance to the point of a math description I would also like to see what you have in that department.

LB

Larry: 29 Jul 2009 : 09:07:02<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Your model depends on several types of waves, and I have a question about them. Waves need a medium in which to wave. I have been expecting you to get around to this aspect of your model some day, but it has been a while and you have not, so I suppose it is time to ask.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">There are two fundamental types of waves in my model---pressure waves and shear waves. Both types propagate through the ether in a manner fundamentally the same as acoustic waves in ordinary foamy solids. They may differ from ordinary acoustic waves in unforseen ways because the forces within the the ether's foamy shape are largely unknown. If we understood the forces among galaxies in our cosmic foam (the large-scale foamy structure revealed by the Sloan Digital Sky Survey , see animations ), we would be a step closer to understanding the ether foam, because the ether foam of our universe is the cosmic foam of a sub-universe. If that sub-universe is roughly the same age as our universe, we should expect its cosmic foam to resemble our cosmic foam. However, the arrow of time reverses from one scale-wise universe to the next; as our universe gets older, the sub-universe gets younger. So we haven't a clue about the age of the sub-unverse; we can't know if galaxies have formed, yet, in the sub-universe. Some of Hawking's wild speculations about the alleged Big Bang may be true; our own cosmic foam may have gone thru a series of phase changes. We don't know what phase the sub-universe's cosmic foam is in, and again I say, it is our ether foam. For the sake of argument, I ASSUME that our ether foam is basically a scaled down copy of our cosmic foam.

The pressure waves are longitudinal waves. In a positive pressure wave, the medium is compressed by forward motion and returns to equilibrium by backward motion. In a negative pressure wave, the medium is first stretched by motion opposite the waves motion and then returns to equilibrium. Pressure waves propagate at the speed of gravity, and I take it on faith that VanFlandern's calculations are correct. This speed can be calculated in the usual manner from permittivity and permeability of free space, or it could be calculated from the inertial density and bulk modulus of the ether---if those parameters were known. I suspect that the inertial density of the ether might be billions or even googols of times greater than that of a neutron star.

The shear waves are lateral waves. The medium is deformed to one side (perpendicular to the dirction of wave propagation) and returns to equilibrium. Shear waves propagate at the speed of light. I believe photons are ethereal shear waves subject to the formula E = hv. The shear waves that comprise particles apparently do not fit that formula because they fit in a distance perhaps 10^10 times shorter. Radio waves, as far as I know, are also exempt from E = hv.

The acoustic formulas from Wikipedia are:

c_longitudinal = sqrt(K/rho)
c_shear = sqrt(G/rho)

K and G are the bulk modulus and shear modulus, respectively.

Larry: 29 Jul 2009 : 09:07:02<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My question: What is the nature of the particle or particles that comprise the medium or media in which your waves propagate? I am more interested in your thinking about the physical properites of said media and particles than in the mathematical descriptions of them. But if you model has advance to the point of a math description I would also like to see what you have in that department.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The medium, which I call our ether foam, is comprised of sub-universe galaxies and sub-universe dark matter. It is the cosmic foam of a sub-universe. A cubic meter of our ether may contain millions of googols of sub-universe galaxies. You might consider those galaxies to be the particles of this medium. Note that this is an elastic solid medium, in the tradition of Fresnel and Maxwell, rather than a perfect gas in the tradition of LeSage.

When the expansion of sub-universe space (in reverse time) stretches a wall of galaxies to the breaking point, that wall of galaxies goes "pop". On the time scale of the sub-universe, that "pop" might take a billion years; on our time scale, it might be a small fraction of a Planck time. The "pop" carries momentum and energy which are conserved by means of pressure waves radiating thru the cosmic foam of the sub-universe. From our perspective, because of time inversion, those pressure waves converge toward their source and the ether-foam bubble un-pops. This puts the effect before the cause, which is not a abhorent as it sounds. The Schrodinger equation has waves moving backwards in time, and some sort of time inversion is helpful in explaining the results of double-slit experiments.

The galaxies of our universe are composed of particles called stars, which are composed of particles called atoms, which are composed of particles called bosons, which are composed of particles called quarks, which in my model are composed of pairs or groups of ethereal shear waves orbiting one another at the speed of light. And those shear waves propagate in a medium made of sub-universe galaxies. There is an infinite scale-wise sequence of universes; consequently, there is no action at a distance because there is no finite-size empty space for a wave to cross. Everything consists of waves in a medium of particles which are composed of waves in a medium of particles ... <i>ad infinitum</i>.

All this is laid out in a more comprehensive and logical order on Phil's blog on Yahoo! (The old Yahoo!360 blog no longer exists, in case you tried the link in post #1 of this thread before I revised it.) I am in the process of revising that description before I post it in a new thread, here.

Fractal Foam Model of Universes: Creator