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Big Bang Dogma
- tvanflandern
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22 years 5 months ago #2487
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
> [jim]: The 2nd law of thermodynamics is about heat.
It is mainly about entropy. Heat is just an example.
> [jim]: Heat is what results when energy interacts with matter.
"Energy" can also be thought of as the motion of particles or waves (i.e., matter) on a smaller scale.
> [jim]: A photon of energy has no heat and only when mass absorbs photons does heat enter.
Photons have energy, and infrared photons in particular *are* heat.
> [jim]: The rules developed to utilize this interaction of energy and matter called heat are of little use in cosmology so why get bogged down in what entrophy does or does not accomplish? I don't get it.
Cosmologists think otherwise. Entire books have been written about applications of thermodynamics to cosmology.
One big issue is whether the universe is necessarily headed toward an ultimate "heat death", the loss of all available energy resulting from entropy always increasing. -|Tom|-
It is mainly about entropy. Heat is just an example.
> [jim]: Heat is what results when energy interacts with matter.
"Energy" can also be thought of as the motion of particles or waves (i.e., matter) on a smaller scale.
> [jim]: A photon of energy has no heat and only when mass absorbs photons does heat enter.
Photons have energy, and infrared photons in particular *are* heat.
> [jim]: The rules developed to utilize this interaction of energy and matter called heat are of little use in cosmology so why get bogged down in what entrophy does or does not accomplish? I don't get it.
Cosmologists think otherwise. Entire books have been written about applications of thermodynamics to cosmology.
One big issue is whether the universe is necessarily headed toward an ultimate "heat death", the loss of all available energy resulting from entropy always increasing. -|Tom|-
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22 years 5 months ago #2458
by EBTX
Replied by EBTX on topic Reply from
"The Meta Model predicts that ever larger structures in the universe and ever smaller entities in the quantum world will continue to be discovered for as long as we look for them." - TVF
In view of this statement, what is the Meta Model's reply to the uncertainty principle? This would seem to define a 'finite limit' to discovery at least on the "ever smaller" side.
In view of this statement, what is the Meta Model's reply to the uncertainty principle? This would seem to define a 'finite limit' to discovery at least on the "ever smaller" side.
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22 years 5 months ago #2459
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
> [jim]: The 2nd law of thermodynamics is about heat.
It is mainly about entropy. Heat is just an example.
> [jim]: Heat is what results when energy interacts with matter.
"Energy" can also be thought of as the motion of particles or waves (i.e., matter) on a smaller scale.
> [jim]: A photon of energy has no heat and only when mass absorbs photons does heat enter.
Photons have energy, and infrared photons in particular *are* heat.
> [jim]: The rules developed to utilize this interaction of energy and matter called heat are of little use in cosmology so why get bogged down in what entrophy does or does not accomplish? I don't get it.
Cosmologists think otherwise. Entire books have been written about applications of thermodynamics to cosmology.
One big issue is whether the universe is necessarily headed toward an ultimate "heat death", the loss of all available energy resulting from entropy always increasing. -|Tom|-
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
> [jim]: The 2nd law of thermodynamics is about heat.
It is mainly about entropy. Heat is just an example.
> [jim]: Heat is what results when energy interacts with matter.
"Energy" can also be thought of as the motion of particles or waves (i.e., matter) on a smaller scale.
> [jim]: A photon of energy has no heat and only when mass absorbs photons does heat enter.
Photons have energy, and infrared photons in particular *are* heat.
> [jim]: The rules developed to utilize this interaction of energy and matter called heat are of little use in cosmology so why get bogged down in what entrophy does or does not accomplish? I don't get it.
Cosmologists think otherwise. Entire books have been written about applications of thermodynamics to cosmology.
One big issue is whether the universe is necessarily headed toward an ultimate "heat death", the loss of all available energy resulting from entropy always increasing. -|Tom|-
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
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22 years 5 months ago #2460
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
Photons are photons and heat is heat-the two are not interchangable. Heat cannot radiate through space and photons can. Photons are energy heat is not. Heat is a result of energy interacting with matter. The interaction is viewed by mankind in lots of different ways and in the pure energy/mass scale entrophy is not there. I must be behind the times since I thought the heat death theory was discarded long ago.
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22 years 5 months ago #2546
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
> [ebtx]: what is the Meta Model's reply to the uncertainty principle? This would seem to define a 'finite limit' to discovery at least on the "ever smaller" side.
According to MM, the uncertainty principle is the natural result of attempting to give particle-like properties to phenomena that are actually waves. For example, in MM, light is a pure wave, and has no "dual" nature. (The two experiments that have particle-like properties, the photoelectric and Compton effects, also have wave interpretations; whereas the many experiments that have wave-like properties have no known particle interpretations.)
In any wave phenomenon, one cannot simultaneously specify exact position and momentum. If the position refers to the wave crest, the momentum is still spread throughout the wave; and vice versa.
Once we recognize that light has a wave character, it becomes obvious to appreciate that many quantum entities are too small to study with light without doing violence to them. Because light cannot be used in quantities less than a single "photon" (a single wave), it cannot be used to examine structure smaller than its own scale. To get detailed photos of the atomic nucleus, we will need to use tools much, much smaller than photons, such as gravitons. -|Tom|-
According to MM, the uncertainty principle is the natural result of attempting to give particle-like properties to phenomena that are actually waves. For example, in MM, light is a pure wave, and has no "dual" nature. (The two experiments that have particle-like properties, the photoelectric and Compton effects, also have wave interpretations; whereas the many experiments that have wave-like properties have no known particle interpretations.)
In any wave phenomenon, one cannot simultaneously specify exact position and momentum. If the position refers to the wave crest, the momentum is still spread throughout the wave; and vice versa.
Once we recognize that light has a wave character, it becomes obvious to appreciate that many quantum entities are too small to study with light without doing violence to them. Because light cannot be used in quantities less than a single "photon" (a single wave), it cannot be used to examine structure smaller than its own scale. To get detailed photos of the atomic nucleus, we will need to use tools much, much smaller than photons, such as gravitons. -|Tom|-
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22 years 5 months ago #2495
by mking
Replied by mking on topic Reply from Matthew King
>[Tom] Photons have energy, and infrared photons in particular *are* heat.
> [Jim] Photons are photons and heat is heat-the two are not interchangable. Heat cannot radiate through space and photons can. Photons are energy heat is not. Heat is a result of energy interacting with matter.
Tom is proposing that we replace the accepted theory of the mechanisms of electromagnetic phenomena with a new model. Arguing at him based on the assumptions of the old model is not very useful.
The Meta Model proposes that what the old school calls a "photon" is actually one cycle of a wave in the Light Carrying Medium; experiments that purport to show light is particulate are actually showing the effects of the LCM wave on matter.
Thus the tautology that "Photons are photons and heat is heat" is even less meaningful than most tautologies: the terms involved are understood differently by the participants of the discussion. If Tom's Meta Model is correct, then "photons" are make-believe.
> [Jim] Heat cannot radiate through space
Why not? Oh, because space is completely empty, of course. Again, you're arguing against a component of Tom's model based on premises of yours. Necessary deductions from one model are not supposed to jive with the premises of another.
Meta Model says that there exists no empty space anywhere. The universe is continuous, contiguous substance constructed on an infinite range of scale. Heat is understood in both models as small scale particle motion. In the Meta Model, it seems that small scale particle motion of the LCM can be physically transferred to the substances we recognize as matter. So heat can radiate through "space".
> [Jim] Photons are photons and heat is heat-the two are not interchangable. Heat cannot radiate through space and photons can. Photons are energy heat is not. Heat is a result of energy interacting with matter.
Tom is proposing that we replace the accepted theory of the mechanisms of electromagnetic phenomena with a new model. Arguing at him based on the assumptions of the old model is not very useful.
The Meta Model proposes that what the old school calls a "photon" is actually one cycle of a wave in the Light Carrying Medium; experiments that purport to show light is particulate are actually showing the effects of the LCM wave on matter.
Thus the tautology that "Photons are photons and heat is heat" is even less meaningful than most tautologies: the terms involved are understood differently by the participants of the discussion. If Tom's Meta Model is correct, then "photons" are make-believe.
> [Jim] Heat cannot radiate through space
Why not? Oh, because space is completely empty, of course. Again, you're arguing against a component of Tom's model based on premises of yours. Necessary deductions from one model are not supposed to jive with the premises of another.
Meta Model says that there exists no empty space anywhere. The universe is continuous, contiguous substance constructed on an infinite range of scale. Heat is understood in both models as small scale particle motion. In the Meta Model, it seems that small scale particle motion of the LCM can be physically transferred to the substances we recognize as matter. So heat can radiate through "space".
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